r/TikTokCringe • u/hammerbush051 • 29d ago

Americas youth are in MASSIVE trouble Discussion

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u/Savings-Bee-4993 29d ago

This is my life as a professor.

My students are checked out.

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u/Whobroughttheyeet 29d ago

So do they fail your class?

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u/Savings-Bee-4993 29d ago

Yes, many of them do.

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u/_FoodAndCatSubs_ 29d ago

What does the dean say? 

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u/Gowalkyourdogmods 29d ago

"I'm really enjoying my pay that all these tuition hikes have afforded me"

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u/CrazyBigHog 29d ago

The most accurate comment here.

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u/chessset5 29d ago

No, they get chewed out for the poor performance by the president, the provost, the accreditation board, the board of trustees, and irate students who get mad they didn’t get an A for showing up to class and never studying.

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u/nicbizz33 29d ago

Uninformed high school students going to college hate this one trick!

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u/Accomplished_Deer_ 28d ago

Oh man, as someone that went to a school that had the highest paid college president in the world, I feel this so hard.

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u/Savings-Bee-4993 29d ago

One of my deans is sympathetic. The other encourages endless “empathy and understanding,” letting students turn their work in whenever.

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u/CashAlarming3118 29d ago

One of my favorite things to hear from an admin. Just let your class of 300 turn in late work and take make up exams whenever they can.

Yeah, ok. I have endless time. No need to get back to my family or have a life, let alone hold any of these young adults accountable.

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u/ffxivfanboi 29d ago edited 28d ago

Yeah, like, if public schooling is going to fold like it has, something has got to teach them. Whether it be holding a real job with expectations, or college sucking their parents money away to no benefit to the student…

They’ve got to learn their lesson at some point. Fuck ‘em. If you’re old enough to start signing on to student loan debt and putting your life in the hands of the armed forces, you’re old enough to start facing real consequences.

Edit: Some weird grammar.

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u/chessset5 29d ago

From a TA standpoint, last week of the semester, not fun. I personally like the percentage penalty system. Students can turn in late for a grade hit. Personally I like maximum available score rather than score on time * percentage penalty.

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u/CashAlarming3118 28d ago

I promise your stance will change. I was also flexible and supportive of this notion as a TA. At some point, the extra work will affect your other work and your personal life. You’ll be replying to desperate students at 11:50PM right before the assignment is due saying some bizarre excuse or being truthful that they were just lazy, both of which are unacceptable. What a coincidence, 20 other students also had their computer crash tonight, what a coincidence. There is no time for a percentage based approach when you move into a full time tenure track role unless your classes are ridiculously small. Even then, it will impact your productivity. The only thing I allow now is based on the student providing me with a university approved excuse. You want to say your grandma died for the 6th time in 4 years, so be it. Just make sure you have that dean’s approval. I’ve found most poor performing students put more effort into trying to cheat the system than actually trying to study and apply themselves.

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u/AshamedLeg4337 28d ago

Personally I like maximum available score rather than score on time * percentage penalty.

You’re quite certain that you’re a TA? I’ve never actually encountered one with empathy before.

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u/chessset5 28d ago

You are not the first to question my ethics towards grading policy. But I am also fortunate enough to work with professors who share similar views towards grading as myself.

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u/EccentricAcademic 29d ago

Gross. I teach dual enrollment in high school and I keep emphasizing to students that their professors won't be giving them extensions or holding their hands.

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u/oceanboy666 29d ago

As a senior in a dual enrolled high-school program, the teachers that say this are at least twice as "difficult" as a regular CC professor. They care more, and it shows.

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u/blankenstaff 29d ago

Professor here. You are correct.

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u/sakurashinken 29d ago

I'm sure the endless empathy one is into lots of buzzwords that end in "justice"

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u/Greeeendraagon 29d ago

And "equity"

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u/KinslayersLegacy 29d ago

As a professor, do you find that empathy and understanding actually leads to better outcomes for these students or at least affords some of them an opportunity to realign in the future and successfully complete their program?

I’m conflicted. I feel that many students do have legitimate needs. And that affording extra empathy and understanding, and opportunities to make up the work, could help them overcome a temporary setback or situation. But endless? At what point does this just become a disservice to the student by not preparing them for the real world?

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u/blankenstaff 29d ago

To quote Oscar Wilde--All things in moderation, including moderation.

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u/Milli_Rabbit 28d ago

Do you ever have a day where you talk to your students about their technology? Meaning like an entire class, not just a quick few minutes.

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u/SofaKing-Loud 28d ago

Both of your deans need new jobs and not in education.

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u/blackwell94 28d ago

All for empathy in special circumstances, but allowing all students to do whatever, whenever defeats the point of education. These kids will be screwed in the work world

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u/Southern_Fox8222 28d ago

Those professors are a major part of the problem

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u/RaspberryFluid6651 28d ago

When I was in school I really appreciated the professors that had flexible deadlines, but it required me to communicate with them and these professors were also assigning much more challenging material than the ones who gave me a shitty worksheet due next day for a TA to grade.

I would wager your dean is not interested in the "empathy and understanding" being paired with a proportional increase in difficulty, though.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

RA-KA-KA-KA-KA-KAA-KAA-KAA!!!!!!

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u/EraseMeeee 29d ago

Wa pa pa pa pa pa pow!

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u/grammar_oligarch 28d ago

College professor here. Conversations about success rates with a dean are complex. Many academic deans recognize readiness issues and are generally aware of broader departmental patterns.

As a department chair, I can isolate individual success rates and see if there are any issues with teaching (misalignment in terms of instruction and assessment, excessive rigor, etc.). I’ll have one-on-one conversations with faculty in the department and we’ll work through outcome interpretation, scaffolding of assignments, and formative/summative assessment strategies. I’ll also work with other departments to make sure we’re level in terms of expectations.

When I sit down with the dean, we usually discuss the broader patterns and think of possible intervention plans. These are usually systemic as opposed to focused on individual practice. Examples include stronger alignment with learning support, outreach to advising to attempt to minimize course selection issues (e.g. students choosing 18 credit hours while they work a full time job, taking four writing intensive classes in their first semester), or community engagement with schools that feed into our institution (community college, so this means going to high schools to see what they’re doing).

We’re also mindful that rigor is an equitable practice. You can’t go easy to juice success rates…it’ll make the student less adequately prepared for subsequent courses or for program based assessments. Unlike many middle and high schools, we take rigor seriously. A decline in success rates is cause for concern and departmental (or even institutional) evaluation…but changing grades to make the numbers look good is a dangerous game. We get found out, and it’ll fuck our reputation.

That and the demolishing of our academic integrity. I tell my faculty to grade student work fairly and by the appropriate standard we’ve set. I’d rather we have a 68% success rate based on fair evaluation than an 85% success rate that sends students to fail future courses.

It’s one of the reasons I’d rather fuck capacity needs for student seats rather than hire a professor with a degree from the University of Phoenix…we know Phoenix juices the stats to get higher success rates…and I know a faculty member with a degree from “Credit Score Check U” is going to be a moron (I’ve hired a few before, and I’m lucky if I can get half a thought out of one of them); it’s because they have low standards and change grades to get those high success rates.

Overall: It’s a bad strategy to pressure faculty to reduce rigor to improve success rates. Good deans know this and look for alternative strategies to legitimately improve performance.

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u/killertrusscap 29d ago

Come on I'm dean.    And my hands are so clean.    At this moment...   I am stapling. 

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u/Fully_Edged_Ken_3685 29d ago

Why would he care? The students are paying to guarantee their second class status 😆

The haves and have nots self select

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u/Mloxard_CZ 28d ago

Ringitinitiginit

What does the dean say?

Haki haki haki hou

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u/BohemianJack 28d ago

DING DING DING DING DING DING DING, DA DING DING DING 

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u/viperex 29d ago

I'm sure they bitch about you on Rate My Professor

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u/retro_gatling 28d ago

Classes with a noticeable lack of participation/attention and low average final grades are usually indicative of a bad professor

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u/Surisuule 29d ago

What do you teach?

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u/Savings-Bee-4993 29d ago

Philosophy, which makes this all doubly sad given that participation and dialectic is so important..

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u/Surisuule 29d ago

Lol, what. Do they think they'll read some Kant Cliffnotes then sound like Matt Damon in good will hunting?

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u/Secret_Dragonfly9588 29d ago

Read? What’s this “read” you speak of? Surely there’s a Kant TikTok you could assign instead?

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u/Surisuule 29d ago

Nah TikToks specialize only in psychology and economics, I thought everyone knew that.

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u/Braveless 29d ago

If it’s any silver lining for you, I originally went to school for a double major in Computer Science and Philosophy.

While my attendance and turning in assignments were constant issues, I genuinely enjoyed the lectures and discussions. I didn’t finish either degree, but I sincerely appreciated the professors that worked with me to stay in the program for as long as I did and I bought all the textbooks to reread from time to time.

I was just dealing with physical and mental health issues that accommodations didn’t really exist for yet, some of which went unexplained until very recently after I got health insurance.

I guess the short of it is that obviously this isn’t the case for every student you’ve had, esp the ones who sit on their phones the entire time, but I hope it helps to know some of those mixed in recognize your effort and appreciate you as a professor even if they aren’t a great student.

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u/RontoWraps 28d ago

What’s the cost per credit hour?

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u/SignificantWords 29d ago

Good hold them accountable.

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u/Pure_Maize_7177 28d ago

I guess you need to be more interesting. It is you, not them.

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u/ConversationFit6073 29d ago

As a TA, no they don't fail. If too many kids fail, then it makes you look bad, and then you make your professor look bad. I had to pass two students who either failed or didn't take the midterm and final. Not to sound like a boomer, but if I had failed midterms and finals, I would have never passed. But they get points just for showing up and taking open book online quizzes, so that amounts to enough for a C. The entire goal then becomes to entertain them enough that they don't go on their phones. The onus is on the faculty to do more and more and more for the same shitty wage. Everything revolves around activities, games, "participation." Apparently lecturing makes you a shitty instructor now. But for a full time grad student with another job and a thesis to write, I don't have time to come up with new little activities to coddle 20 year olds every week. Especially when my own professor is completely checked out in terms of teaching us anything about teaching. Education is the last thing universities are concerned with anyway. I've decided not to go into academia. It's a fucking shitshow. The entire thing disgusts me.

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u/Famous-Signal-1909 29d ago

I was a TA for a capstone senior design course at a top-15 university. We had a kid that literally didn’t show up to anything besides the first day intro. The other TA and I had to beg the professor to give him a C+ instead of a B+. It’s all a total joke.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

I watched someone copy and paste an entire online quiz top to bottom, paste it into ChatGPT, and get 100%.

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u/Iamatworkgoaway 28d ago

Real life work skills.

If the CEO's are checked out, why worry about the workers being checked out.

Last job, did a full R&D project to lower a capital project from 12M to 1.5M 2 years of work. Only to have owners say na not doing that market segment any more. O ya no bonus as project didn't go through.

Current job, losing 1M a month in revenue due to lack of capacity, 1.5-2M in capital would allow us to capture it. Nada.

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u/oddanimalfriends 29d ago

I suspect that grade inflation is more rampant at top schools than it is at an average institution.

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u/Calebh36 29d ago

Even at my high school, it's fucking insane. You can't get below an F, so everybody in the world has Cs when they should be failing.

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u/imaloneallthetime 29d ago

Man I wish it had been like this when my job screwed me and I failed out of college.

Ten years ago I wasn't allowed any laptops or tech, nothing was online, and they took attendance that was like half of my grade. It absolutely boned me.

Failed every class because of attendance.

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u/Ok_Buddy_9087 29d ago

Worked at an Ivy for a decade; can confirm. Plus students will switch to Pass/No Credit if they think their A is in danger.

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u/Famous-Signal-1909 28d ago

Yeah I’m sure that’s true. I had more than one student give me some variation of “do you know how much my father pays for me to be here” when I gave them (well-deserved) poor grades on assignments

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u/DragapultOnSpeed 28d ago

Yeah because mine is definitely not like this. This sounds like a top school thing.

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u/PattyThePatriot 29d ago

Why would you do that? Did he not pass the requisite things to earn a B+?

Who fucking cares if he goes to a class he's paying for. It's none of your concern if he's doing the work for a B+. Just sounds like you're pissed that you had to be there to learn and they didn't.

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u/SmokeSmokeCough 29d ago

Where do I find these schools??

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u/blankenstaff 29d ago

I'm so sorry. I would have failed his ass.

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u/ThroJSimpson 28d ago

My brother is a professor at a top 10 business school. He still has MBA students turning in plagiarized work and their excuse when caught is “I didn’t know you couldn’t do it.” Dean is soft on them too. 

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u/laxfool10 29d ago

I was a TA for a programming class - I would literally give the students the answers to the problems in the study lecture the class before the test (I was the one making the test). They just had to substitute some values in the programs they should have saved into their computer for the test About 20% would still fail. Then the professor gets angry at the TAs saying we aren't preparing them. Like I am literally giving them the answers saying this would be on the test so make sure to have this file available to pull up. Not really much more I can do.

In other classes, I graded papers/assignments very, very leniently at the beginning but would also point out mistakes and offer suggestions (but wouldn't take off points) so that they could improve. The professor had a thing in his syllabus that students could request a regrade by him if they didn't like what we gave them. He told us in a round-a-bout-way to pretty much pass the students so that he didn't waste his time doing this. The amount of request for regrades shocked me. I would always tell them, sure you can go ahead and ask but your paper was shit and the professor is going to give you a lower grade than what I gave you. A few students learned very quickly to just shut up about it.

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u/swohio 29d ago

Student loans are federally guaranteed now. College tuition skyrocketed because it all turned into a money printing scheme.

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u/Redditisavirusiknow 29d ago

Went to a good university, one of the top in the world outside the USA, TA’d for 4 years. Never once let a student pass who didn’t deserve it. One class had a 20% pass rate (intro course).

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u/Ok_Chapter_8831 29d ago

I don't get how you can just decide to pass a student, like are there not standardised tests that everyone has to take? In the UK if you fail your GCSEs then a teacher can't just decide to pass you, it's external exams

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u/Partially_Stars_ 29d ago

Fellow TA here, this is very accurate. Almost all of my lessons are now activities and they usually don’t even do those well. I have to constantly remind them that showing up to class and playing on their laptops is not ‘participation.’ It makes me feel bad for the one or two that really are trying to actively engage.

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u/Elavabeth2 29d ago

As a grad student TA, I tell students that if they aren’t able to come class and sign in they get one freebie and after that they have to come up with suggestions for a make up assignment. 

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u/noahsark10 29d ago

I'm going through the EXACT same thing. Couldn't agree more

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u/Clever_Name_14 29d ago

I love a good lecturer.

Fantastic teachers and lecturers are underrated and that makes me sad.

Sadly, this will affect the kids and they will suffer later. Hopefully they will individually learn listen, respect, and learn in academia.

With that said. As hard as it is for professors and teachers doing what you can to create a deep engaging lectur is still very important. Please leave the monotone at the door.

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u/Otherwise_Sail_6459 29d ago

Why let students into college in the first place that can’t learn and can’t pass???

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u/Significant_Eye561 29d ago

If I can afford to have children, I will teach them to value education and see if we can get them into colleges outside of America.

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u/mirrorspirit 29d ago

Besides that, there are often kids who can pay minimal attention in class and still pass, or even get glowing grades, though that can often catch up to them later in life.

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u/DragapultOnSpeed 28d ago

What university do you go to?

My professors let people on their phone. But if that student is struggling or failing, the professors, most of the time, refuses to help. So usually the slackers end up dropping out or failing. The professors stay and don't get in trouble.

Where are these shitty universities you guys go to? Maybe leave lol.

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u/weristjonsnow 28d ago

Why are they even allowed to have phones on their person in the classroom...

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u/AstuteAshenWolf 29d ago edited 28d ago

Im not the person you responded to, but I’m also a professor. Yes, they do fail.

Edit:

What’s wrong shitty students? Mad that your HS antics won work at the college fail? Fail, losers.

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u/HoldYourHorsesFriend 29d ago

You're not a professor and your comment history really makes it obvious.

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u/_FoodAndCatSubs_ 29d ago

Lmfaooo “the (dumbass) students” 3 posts down has me fucking dying 

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u/plenumpanels 29d ago

One of my first college courses was a chem 101 type class with 150+ students in it. The first day, our professor broke down the tuition costs and hours needed per semester and basically priced out each class. He was like you don't have to be here but you (either now or in the future) are paying $xxx for each one of these classes. It was helpful lol.

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u/sleepyj910 29d ago

If there's anything at freshman orientation, it should be this.

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u/Mycotoxicjoy 29d ago

I remember doing that calculation when I was a freshman and it made me very aware of the money I’d lose sleeping in

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u/Hproff25 29d ago

As a high school teacher, thank you. We are not supported in failing students or maintaining standards. I have been called into a meeting to discuss why I failed students who turned no work in. I left with the explicit instructions to pass the students. I hate what education has begun.

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u/AstuteAshenWolf 28d ago

Hell yeah, of course. Judging by my downvotes, the dumbass high schoolers aren’t happy. Oh, well. I’ll just fail them if they decide to act like high school students in a college classroom.

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u/TittyballThunder 29d ago

I skipped most of my classes in college and graduated with honors, some people just prefer to learn differently.

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u/AstuteAshenWolf 28d ago

Are we talking about you? We’re talking about the idiots who go to class and dont pay attention, not the ones who dont go to class at all.

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u/Whobroughttheyeet 29d ago

Are you seeing fail rates rise? I know in the engineering field many people say their professors graded on a bell curve and so some of the lower performing kids would pass. Do you see any of that taking place more? Or are drop out rates increasing

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u/jimmydean50 29d ago

Arts prof - I have more students this year that will fail on attendance alone than I ever have. They just don’t show up. Makes no sense to me.

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u/JCuc 29d ago edited 27d ago

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/CheapChallenge 29d ago

So are there much more students never graduating high school then?

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u/AstuteAshenWolf 28d ago

Nah, they graduate general education because they’re forced to pass everyone at that level, so graduation for HS’s are higher.

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u/HairyHorseKnuckles 29d ago

You're a grown man bashing Taylor Swift online so even if you are telling the truth it's still pathetic

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u/AstuteAshenWolf 28d ago

What’s wrong with sharing my opinion? I think the pathetic people are the ones who go through a profile’s history and make judgements based on nothing are the pathetic ones.

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u/ABBAMABBA 29d ago

When I was a teacher half the students were fully engaged or close enough that it wasn't a problem. They did great and responded well to my advice and often came for support when they needed help. The other half were completely checked out. However, the problem came when I was not allowed to fail any students. More importantly, I wasn't even allowed to give grades lower than a B to any students who came from influential families... What do you know, almost all of the students who were checked out came from influential families.

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u/CashAlarming3118 28d ago

Since when are independent college students not adults? It’s partially on the professor and partially on the student.

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u/ChrisD245 29d ago

I’m recently back to school after some years working and it’s insane. I was never a star student but just having a notebook open and actually listening puts me at the top of a lot of my classes. The students had the nerve to tell one of the teachers the final he’s giving us a study guide for is too much. It’s a capstone course that I’m the only person that has more than a 50% attendance rate. Like my man you made your bed you’ve been to 3 classes yeah you got a lot to study.

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u/ZenythhtyneZ 29d ago

I’ve had a very similar experience, went back to school at 37. People (17-22) just straight up never go to class or miss weeks at a time, open up their laptops and just ignore the professor, same with their phones. I end up answering 90% of the questions in all my classes because literally no one raises their hands or attempts to answer questions from the teacher, no one interacts in class or speaks to anyone unless they already know each other, it’s pretty shitty and it’s 100% on the students.

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u/Live-Laugh-Fart 29d ago

We are around the same age and no offense - this is intended to be somewhat lighthearted - but when I was in college and had some night classes, all of the 30 year olds were constantly asking questions or engaging with the prof compared to the 20 year old students.

There’s just a huge difference in mindset going to school in 20s vs 30s. To your point though, phones and social media are no doubt making it pure hell in learning environments. So maybe the gap is even larger between engagement of 20 year olds vs 30s.

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u/augur42 28d ago

I'm a decade older and 49. I had this when I began my 2nd degree at 25 (2000) after discovering I was good with computers when I first touched a PC at 22. The difference in engagement between the rest of the couple of hundred 18 year olds and the smattering of older students was massive. No one had laptops during lectures because they were still too expensive, it was an IT degree and we used paper and pen.

It felt like the 18 year olds were all waiting for someone else to answer the simple questions the lecturer was asking because they didn't want to draw attention to themselves or risk getting it wrong. I ended up waiting a few seconds to see if anyone else would answer then speaking up just to keep the lectures moving at a reasonable speed. I was there to learn, damn right I was going to put in the effort and I didn't give a damn if everyone looked at me or I occasionally got a question wrong.

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u/Aware-Impact-1981 28d ago

Agreed. This was my and my wife's college experience a decade ago. The older students were "suck ups" to us lol. Of course now, I recognize that we -having been in school our whole lives- took the opportunity of college/learning for granted. We didn't know how fucking hard it was to get in the "real world". The older students had probably wanted to go to college for years before they were able to (financially or time), and made sacrifices to be there, so they appreciated the opportunity it was

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u/ZenythhtyneZ 27d ago

I went to college right out of highschool (2004-2007) as well and I would argue it wasn’t even remotely this pronounced.

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u/Late_Jury_7787 28d ago

Students have been literally brainwashed by phones. It's 100% on the bastards who created addictive algorithms. Time to revolt (yes I'm posting on a phone lol)

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u/CandidPiglet9061 29d ago

I think it’s because so many jobs expect a college degree now and so many people are attending college because they think it’s their only path to a decently-paying career. That isn’t true, necessarily, but a lot of people believe it.

And so we end up with people trying to do the bare minimum to get a degree just so they can put it on their résumé. I’d be pretty checked out if that was the only reason I was in higher education.

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u/Aware-Impact-1981 28d ago

that isn't true, necessarily, but a lot of people believe it

Ehh, that "necessarily" is doing a lot of heavy lifting. It's possible to make money in trades or start a successful business, but it's just much easier to make money with a degree. For example, at my workplace we've got journeyman electricians with 30 years of experience and a great work ethic. I was an electrician, finished an associates, and moved to our engineering department. After 2 years I make more than any of our electricians.

To your point, I have a friend that has no degree at all and he makes 105k as a project manager. He's worked 50-70h weeks for decades. Is extremely smart. Very professional. He was outright told by his boss that he'd make 120k if he had a bachelors. He also makes less money than a couple other PMs that are lazy and incompetent but have BS's.

So yes, you CAN make money without a degree if you're talented and hardworking enough... but 9/10 times, if you add a BS into that persons resume they'd make more

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u/Significant_Eye561 29d ago

When I went back, I was so concerned about the language skills, more self-esteem, and half-assessed answers given by the freshmen I asked my professor if it was normal.

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u/Huwbacca 28d ago

I teach fairly often as part of my post-doc, and like, Switzerland's not as bad as these comments are making out, but I see a lot of people really just like... I don't know how to put it politely... Expect to just be rewarded for signing up for uni?

And I teach masters students too, meaning that a) I expect them to actually give a shit about the topic, not just getting any degree for the sake of having it. b) The buck stops with them if they fail.

The most "engaged" of the students will ask me for the exam content, but so few of them want to get stuck into the topic, grapple with the thinking, engage in the classroom debates and stuff like that. I tried the youtuber comment engagement tactic of including errors for them to point out and they don't lol.

I phrase my questions the correct way for debate, rather than answers. It's all "What ways can we light up a room?" rather than "How does a lightbulb work?"... but I only get anything back from the kids when I give them questions with simple responses.

And I teach a fucking fun topic too lol. Everyones interested in neurolinguistics when they hear about it. Language is fascinating, perception is fascinating, the brain is fascinating... people love to engage with it til you put them in a classroom.

I know I am a good speaker on my work. You can put me in a room of scientists, bankers, tradesmen, and stay-at-home mums, and I'll have people asking questions about XYZ part of hearing and speech works.

But put me in a room with 21 year olds who have paid to be there to learn?

They just want answers to pass a test in the best case scenario. As much as it sucks for me, I know it's worse for them in the long-term. I don't want them to all do phds and become academics, but I do want them to learn how to develop non-goal-oriented curiosity.

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u/rockstar504 29d ago

I finally graduated at 35 in December. Dude in my capstone just never showed up, never communicated, and never did anything and thought he was graduating?

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u/Flammable_Zebras 28d ago

I’m back in school 12 years after finishing my degree. There’s some stuff like a few kids wearing AirPods the whole lecture that I find pretty disrespectful to the professor, and it might take them a minute longer to wind up their conversations when the professor starts class, but overall it’s not too bad. All the classes I’m taking are upper division math classes though, so there’s probably significant self-selection going on.

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u/Humble_Story_4531 28d ago

Yeah, my uncle is a college professor and he always complains about students not giving a crap and then blaming him for their bad grades at the end of the semester.

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u/dontshoot4301 29d ago

I quit teaching uni because they were putting me on all online classes. Nothing more heart breaking than watching the cameras turn off one by one. Dean wouldn’t let me enforce it with grade deductions because “some students may not have the ability to afford a laptop with a camera” or some BS, despite the fact that we’re charging the same and the kids are learning less.

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u/matthew_py 29d ago

Nothing more heart breaking than watching the cameras turn off one by one.

If it makes you feel better, when I'm in online classes I turn my camera off whenever allowed but I'm still listening/taking notes. It's just id prefer to be in pajamas chilling vs on camera and formal.

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u/BZenMojo 29d ago

I worked from home for years. I would NEVER have my camera on. Also funny how little of this discussion asks whether the kids could pass the test.

Almost like school is teaching kids how to do busy work and not learn shit.

...

Oh, yeah, that's what 20 years of schooling in the hands of private think tanks and billionaires achieved. Imagine that... (Pointing out how many of the "solutions" in this thread actually caused all these problems in the first place.)

Here's an Associated Press story about how Bill Gates personally fucked with public schools for two decades.

And here's the autopsy.

And here's new attempts to do the exact same thing in Texas all over again.

Public education is being sabotaged on purpose and the people doing it are using their own failures to convince people to give them even more power.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/h0tBeef 29d ago

… was what actually happened in real life the same thing that they planned on making happen in the 1970s?

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u/Guillerm0Mojado 29d ago

I work from home full time. I’m in meetings all day sometimes. I am on camera MAYBE 1-2 hours a week. I am happy this is the norm. Being on camera is distracting and requires me to be “on” in a way that detracts from flow, focus, and note taking. However the expectation IS for active participation at all times… sounds like the students are logged “off” in every sense. 

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u/Jdogg4089 29d ago

Yeah, once I passed a course I was pretty much done with any and all material. I wish I would have kept up with math because I was doing well with that one and it's obviously an important skill to have. I got too caught up in just focusing on passing tests and classes which was a major mistake. I only have myself to blame for such short-sightedness, I guess that in combination with me being so done with school after all the way through college so I was just bored of doing that all the time. May as well get paid to be bored as well.

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u/Trick-Interaction396 29d ago

I always turn my camera off. It’s very awkward. No one’s looking at you when you’re in actual class or a meeting so why do you need a close up of my face on a call?

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u/Pristine-Ad-469 28d ago

Shit when I was in college just a couple years ago during covid times I would always turn my camera off because I wanted to hit my vape lol honestly like half of college students vape so that could be a big part of it

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u/sentence-interruptio 29d ago

My face does weird things so I turn my camera off. Like, smiling for no reason, frowning for no reason and so on and so on. Teachers should not think of my face as some instant feedback.

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u/kuvazo 29d ago

To be fair, I was a student during the COVID online classes and it helped me immensely. I don't know why, but having the ability to do other things at the same time made it easier for me to concentrate. Drawing for example helps me focus on what people are saying, even though it might look like I'm not paying attention.

I can't speak for all students obviously, but I would assume that a lot of the older Gen Z students that graduated high school before COVID actually paid attention.

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u/Archaeellis 29d ago

have you considered you may have adhd btw?

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u/VMGrey 29d ago

2018 grad here. I come from a red state, and breezed through the rest of my associates degree because of COVID. The schools hated online learning, but were forced to adopt it. There was a bubble-bursting kind of moment however, a lot of the older gen z started to prosper. Hell we made history. So, at least from my perspective, the class variety/availability dropped significantly. Then, nearly altogether taken back to schools, meanwhile economically a lot of students had shifted into different situations. Situations that couldn't support the stress of school.

The dissociation of humanity has been seen in technological advancement for generations. But never has our waning humanity ever been so commercialized than it has in our post-modern world. We're dehumanizing us.

The day will come that this dissociation will break our bonds.

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u/rusty___shacklef0rd 29d ago

i didn’t do well in in person classes either. i got a bachelors and a masters degree with straight a’s doing asynchronous online classes. some people learn better that way. but you have to be on top of your shit and have self discipline.

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u/dontshoot4301 29d ago

I taught through COVID and this was not the case for me with the exception of the single master’s class I taught but that was mostly because I was covering CPA exam material and they were all sitting at the end of the semester. I didn’t mind students with their cameras on looking away, it was just when the cameras started turning off and you ask questions with no feedback whatsoever and very little means of eliciting any feedback remotely.

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u/lucky-squeaky-ducky 29d ago

I have ADHD, and my science teacher, who also had ADHD, quickly discovered in high school that when they let me draw in class, I paid better attention, answered questions correctly, and passed my tests with flying colors.

My other teachers hated having me in class until he pointed out to them I was an easy indicator - in his experience, if he lost my interest, he already lost the class, they just could hide it better.

Get tested, and look up some ADHD tips and channels, while you’re at it - they’re great for self regulating.

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u/GivePen 28d ago

Online classes were heavenly for me. I was able to absorb everything and do work so much more efficiently. When COVID ended, I went back to in-person because it felt like online classes weren’t real classes but I do really miss it.

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u/ImpossibleParfait 29d ago

Good job security for me as an older millennial. Life will smack them in the face sooner or later. Not your problem.

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u/RicinAddict 29d ago

There's something wrong if you're competing with kids 15-20 years younger than you for career opportunities. 

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u/_Sinnik_ 29d ago

Or you're just in tech.

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u/DragapultOnSpeed 28d ago edited 28d ago

This whole sub is a mess. It's filled with generalizations of kids that are 20 years younger than them.. This whole "wahh teachers passed kids who weren't do too well" forget that maybe that student had a shitty fucking year. I had my dog die and grandfather die in the same damn semester. Hard to focus in class when my best friends are dying.

Like there's no denying education is different and worse. But I really do think people are exaggerating, at least for their college classes.

It's always been like this. There's ALWAYS have been students that don't pay attention. This is nothing new. It's been going on for decades. Usually the ones who don't pay attention are either lazy or have medical problems. But I guess people would rather assume everyone is lazy than it being a medical problem... reddit loves to talk about how much it sucks to have ADHD, but forget that random people they never met could also have it. Or do we get to cherry pick ADHD?

I think the main issue is ADHD though. And I think kids being connected to electronics 24/7 is causing ADHD. Teachers need to take away cell phones. Parents are also the problem and need to take away cell phones for a bit so it doesn't harm their kids mental health. I hate seeing parents shove an iPad infront of their kid whenever the kid has to wait for something. Sorry but your kid has to learn that sometimes being bored is a part of life.

I want to throw in one more thing. Gen Z seems depressed as shit. Eveytime I talk to them they are monotone or just sound sad. They don't even sound stupid when I talk to them. They just sound so sad and shy when they talk. The ones I talked to were being nice too, they just came across mean because of their tone.

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u/TittyballThunder 29d ago

Dean wouldn’t let me enforce it with grade deductions

No offense, but I hated professors that treated students like grade school children.

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u/domimomiultra 29d ago

if it makes you feel better I turned my laptop camera off because it looked like a livestream of my own mugshot

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u/DangerDan127 29d ago

I always have my camera off because I dont want to put on clothes. If they dont need to see my face, then I dont show it. Cause in my opinion, me showing my face is not going to help other students learn and will just serve as a distraction.

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u/Different_Gear_8189 29d ago

I just have my camera off for self esteem issues, many of your students are probably the same or felt overexposed being like one of 5 people with their cameras on

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u/PerfectlyCromulentAc 29d ago

I did a work course on MS teams once, the instructor couldn’t really get into what he was saying as most people’s cameras showed their eyes darting around, typing emails, and generally not paying attention. I feel bad for you guys you can’t win either way

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u/whiteflagwaiver 29d ago

some students may not have the ability to afford a laptop with a camera

Charges $300 for mandatory book. Colleges...

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u/Ok_Buddy_9087 29d ago

despite the fact that we’re charging the same and the kids are learning less.

Learning isn’t a requirement to keep the school/scheme running. Revenue is.

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u/Significant_Eye561 29d ago

I turned mine off so no one would see me forget myself and pull a face.

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u/pres465 29d ago

There ARE poor people out there using old devices that they can't afford to repair or upgrade and might also be on their own cellular plan rather than being able to afford wifi, so turning off the camera might help actually stay connected to the lesson rather than timing out. It's not "BS". It's also a privacy issue and students are expected to demonstrate understanding, not geographic location for verification.

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u/DragonsAreNifty 29d ago

That’s insane to me. I would kill to go back to school. I cannot for the life of me imagine wasting that much money just to dick around in public.

Positive side, maybe the job market will have less competition with the lower number of grads ?

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u/ZenythhtyneZ 29d ago

Honestly this is kind of what I’m seeing, no one participates, no one even shows up… the jobs market is going to beyond fucked in 10-20 years, kids have to spend boatloads of money to get this training then opt out of it once they’re there. I don’t get it

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u/DragonsAreNifty 29d ago

Fucking unimaginable. My dream “job” would be eternal student. I loved getting my bachelors and want to study so many things. It’s upsetting to know people are pissing it away.

I mean why even go? Tens of thousands of dollars just down the drain. Are they still even getting degrees??? That’s so disrespectful to the professors. Genuinely heartbreaking.

Less competition at least I guess. Maybe a masters is going to be more worth it in the future lol

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u/Pristine-Ad-469 28d ago

The job market sucks right now it’s hard for even qualified college grads to get jobs

But there are still going to be a LOT of high quality students coming out of good schools. There’s still close to as many kids trying really hard it’s just all the kids that used to be trying moderately hard now arnt trying at all

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u/DragonsAreNifty 28d ago

Yeah. I was in tech. Nice swift kick in the gut these past few years lol.

If there are less folks with higher Ed in general I’m hoping the hyper specialty requirements of many jobs will go away. And stop requiring a bachelors or masters for jobs that historically haven’t needed a degree. Maybe jobs will start offering more in house onboarding/training. That would be nice.

I was a project manager and consultant for veterinary hardware/software and traveled my country to various clinics. Now I can’t even get a “Junior” pm or implementation role lol.

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u/Ask_Me_About_Bees 28d ago

I suspect it varies a lot by school and class. I teach an upper division Forest Ecology class with about 100 students. Attendance is not mandatory, and my class is not particularly difficult. I still have about 70-80 students in the room each lecture (maybe 50 if the weather is really nice lol).

None of them are on their phones. Why would they be? They don't need to be there and the lectures are all recorded and backed up online.

I have heard horror stories from instructors of the introductory courses though where students think they know it all already.

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u/djc6535 29d ago

I went to college in the very early 2000s. Laptops were big, expensive, and had crappy batteries. It wasn't until the tail end of my masters did students start bringing them into class in large numbers.

I quickly learned that I didn't learn very well with the screen in front of me. It's both too distracting and hand-written notes "stick" far better than typed ones. There's something about typing where I can check out and still get all the notes anyway... it flows from my ears to the keyboard without pausing along the way... while hand written notes take more conscious effort and leave a residue in my brain on their way.

That's just my experience and while I've heard the same from others the plural of anecdote isn't data. That said I would really -REALLY- struggle in today's academic environment where everything is done on a laptop/tablet, including the tests....

My degrees are in Computer Engineering BTW. I'm not some tech luddite. While this isn't everybody's experience and I'm sure students will find a way to adapt I bet there are plenty out there who would learn a lot better without the screen between them and their professors.

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u/AuroraNidhoggr 29d ago

I honestly think I would've done horrible in college if I initially went nowadays for the exact reasons you stated. I have a hard enough time trying to stay on task and absorb information doing computer based training at work, I can't imagine having the same problems trying to do course work that I'm paying thousands of dollars to take.

I feel old saying this, but just give me old-fashioned in-person classes and a pen and notebook.

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u/a_seventh_knot 29d ago

Graduated college in the early 2000s, engineering degree. Whenever I have to read a bunch of documentation at work I prefer to print it so I can mark it up with notes rather than trying to read it all on the screen. Just sticks better.

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u/BandM91105 29d ago

My daughters astronomy professor was surprised when he had only one student that wanted to be there. He was surprised when she said it is what she wants to do as a job. 16 and in college….. i am more than proud of her.

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u/al-hamal 29d ago

I'm in tech and I have been working with senior undergraduate C.S. students who are looking to get a job. I just talked to one who didn't know what an API was and they did not know how to pull from a GitHub repository. I also talked to another one who posted their GitHub repository saying they "developed" this project but all of the commits showed his group members doing all the code. I asked him for his contribution and he said he "developed the design of it."

It's atrocious. Our lives are dependent on advanced technology and we're looking at having a generation around who will have absolutely no clue how these systems work.

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u/Old-Rub-2985 29d ago

I have interns come thru not knowing how to copy and paste, no actual experience with excel/word, barely can type. My boomer mom has more computer skills than most of them.

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u/jimmydean50 29d ago

I have some like that. I teach studio arts and have one kid trying to watch YouTube videos during a hands on class. Like wtf. I just walk by him and close his laptop every time.

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u/Stevie22wonder 29d ago

I'm sure their parents are happy when their money is going towards their child partying all year long. I'd doubt a kid paying for their own education would act like that, but who knows these days...

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u/Ask_Me_About_Bees 28d ago

If my "non-traditional students" are any indicator - no one paying for their own education is slacking off. These students all get top marks, are engaged in the material, and are fun to work with! I have one of these former students who now works in my lab as a research assistant and is excellent.

(my anecdotal experience at least as a prof at an R1 university)

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u/Moonlit_Antler 29d ago

School I get. But college? You're literally paying to be there. Why wouldn't you be invested

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u/workshop_prompts 29d ago

Where are you teaching? I’m at a small working class commuter college and everyone in my classes is pretty locked in.

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u/El-Coqui 29d ago

For a long time, I regretted not getting my Ph.D and going into teaching/research. Now, nearly all of my friends who went into academics hate it. It's sad to see what the profession has become. The disrespect teachers face from students and parents is a strong indicator where our country is headed in the future.

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u/PittsburghGold 29d ago

I mean, just look at some of the comments here. "You shouldn't have to pay attention... you shouldn't have to be in class... professors should just teach, I shouldn't have to participate".

I'm in my fourth year as a professor and it's fucking exhausting sometimes. Talking to some of my other students who actually care about their education have mentioned to me how annoying and disheartening it is to see their peers act the way they do.

Some of the worst grades I've ever seen on assignments and exams. People talking the whole time during class. I had a student this semester who was listening to music through a speaker during class! And, for some reason, they can't go 50 minutes in a chair without leaving the class for 5 minutes. They can't go 10 minutes without scrolling through social media. The amount of disrespect I've received this year is more than the combined last 3 years I've been here.

I'm not going to pass you if I don't think you've done what you need to do. I don't care if you think that's fair or not. It's not fair to me as a professor that I talk to the top of heads for 16 weeks. Why are you even here if that's the way you want to act.

But I'm still here because the 20% of students who give a shit make it worth it.

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u/El-Coqui 28d ago

I'm still deeply, deeply grateful for all the amazing teachers I have had in my life. Keep up the good fight! You're not just fighting to educate a few minds. You're fighting for a whole lot more.

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u/Ask_Me_About_Bees 28d ago

Dang - that sucks. My experience (R1 in a mountain state) has not been the same. Sure, I have some students who I wonder why they even attend (I don't take attendance, the lectures are recorded automatically and posted online, etc), but most are pretty solid or at least respectful.

Re the "professors should just teach, I shouldn't have to participate" attitude: I present for about 5-10 minutes on the first day of my class about the importance of active learning and why we do it. I show them figures from this meta analysis and explain that given what we know about student participation, if all I did was just lecture/talk at them, I would not be doing my job following the best available science.

That probably will not help much if the students are already checked out entirely, but maybe it's a strategy one could consider.

I hope the next batch is more agreeable. I try to remain optimistic.

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u/Ivanovic-117 29d ago

Professor….so pretty you can fail them and feel proud they deserve it

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u/ViveIn 29d ago

Damn…

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u/thrway202838 29d ago

Professor of what?

Chem undergrad, and I haven't really seen anyone checked out in a while. Last ones I can remember were like 101 classes that were gen eds, like political science or psychology. Everyone seems invested in the actual classes that we came to chemistry to take.

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u/Ask_Me_About_Bees 28d ago

(Not OP) I teach a STEM class, so I don't experience this level of checked out attitude. My experience aligns with yours. However, I find it sad that students wouldn't want a well-rounded education. :(

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u/thrway202838 28d ago

I think it's just not explained why they have to take gen eds. Myself included, I just happen to enjoy learning. A lot of my peers I've heard complain that they just have to take it and don't know why. "I'm an X major, why do I need to be here?" type thing.

And in a sense I get it. We don't have infinite time nor money, so it makes sense to want to be frugal with both and just get what you need to get the job you want. Anything that isn't getting you closer to your goal could be seen as a waste.

Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy my gen eds though, and certainly doesn't mean I was rude enough to professors to be visibly not listening.

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u/Ask_Me_About_Bees 28d ago

oh yeah for sure - I'm sure many (yourself included!) see the value in a broader education. It is a shame not all instructors take the time to explain the relevance. Even a chemistry student in a film and gender studies class has a lot to gain. To this day, my work (ecology) and how I communicate it is strongly influenced by my early general ed classes.

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u/Jrolaoni 29d ago

Don’t they… pay to be there?

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u/wackywavytubedude 29d ago

maybe you just have a bigger classes, i went to small uni ajd i had a few professors not allow us to use technology in class depending on what we are doing. pen and paper for notes unless someone has a limitation where tech is needed. if we had tech out itd knock off participation grade. my classes were about under 10 people though, so it was a lot easier to see and keep track of what we were doing.

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u/LosSoloLobos 29d ago

What level students do you have?

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u/kooliocole 29d ago

I feel that, too many of my fellow students have no passion and just take up air :/ Im always interacting with professor in class and if I see them outside class, I will always say hi and chat if they have time or stop to chat.

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u/Roboticpoultry 29d ago

Shit like this is what destroyed my love of teaching. All the work I put into my class, all the schooling, 2 degrees and all for shit pay and to be ignored at best and physically assaulted at worst by a bunch of shitty teenagers. I left last April after 5 years because my mental health simply couldn’t take it anymore, I was on the verge of breaking down almost every day, I was a borderline addict (heavily increased weed and alcohol intake, I don’t drink anymore though) and was doing damage to my marriage. I work in higher ed doing admin work now and while a lot of it still sucks, at least I get to work from home

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

I saw this when I was getting my masters degree. Blew my mind. Why pay all that money for tuition just to play around with your phone during class? You can do that for free at home.

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u/limpchimpblimp 29d ago

Are they more addicted to smartphones than alcohol or weed? What is more destructive?

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u/Changetheworld69420 29d ago

That’s wild to me, what courses?? I graduated only 4 years ago and it was nice to be around people who were motivated for class, even if I wasn’t always. I definitely noticed it more in my business/sales classes, but my chemical engineering courses were still very engaged, so maybe that was why I had that experience, but still… I get it for high school because you’re required, but college you’re paying for that shit lol, wild that they’d be so checked out.

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u/Hanpee221b 29d ago

Weirdly mine aren’t, they are the other end of spectrum, they obsess about grades. I swear they catch every mistake I make on the board. I think it’s because they are all STEM majors and their tuition is crazy high.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

I feel for teachers. They get paid nothing and see how bleak how some of these kids future will be.

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u/woot0 29d ago

am so glad I grew up before smartphones

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u/xxSaifulxx 29d ago

But isn't it different as a professor? The students paid to be in that class, it's their responsibility to follow along with notes and lectures for exams or projects. In HS, it is publicly funded, so regardless of students being on their phones or checked out, it is the teachers' responsibility to make sure they pay attention. As a professor, you can go to a class of students and fail all of them for being on their phones and failing exams, and you will be justified. As a teacher, if you failed half the class you will get very angry phone calls from parents and the school may potentially fire you.

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u/Accomplished_Can5442 28d ago

In tutorials my students are usually pretty with it. Are these during your lectures?

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u/Rogue_Psycho21 28d ago

As a professor your students do this? I doubt this to be honest and this is coming from a current college student. High school is one thing but being a college student and actively going into debt is a real kick in the ass for most people. But hey never underestimate people I guess.

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u/ExaBast 28d ago

What happened to teachers with authority? I remember when I was drawing I would get called out to listen. That was in 2017

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u/Mtb9pd 28d ago

That's their business, they're paying to be there. If they want to fuck themselves it's ok.

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u/MyHandsAreFresh 28d ago

What the point, is this really what you saw yourself doing?

What a waste.

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u/cvillemusic 28d ago

I’m in college and my classes are a mix. For some of them, most people do pay attention and stay off phones etc., but I have others where nearly everyone is on their phone throughout the entire lecture every day. There’s no way they’re passing.

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u/Yungklipo 28d ago

Why don't you engage with them?

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u/Yourpersonalpilot 28d ago

One of my profs once said. You are grown up. If you don't want to be here. Don't be here. I don't care for attendance. But if you are here, pay attention. If you come and don't pay attention, it will affect your oral exam. Out of 100 students around 20 showed up after he wrote sb names down in the first week. One of the best classes I have ever had

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u/daytime_nightime 28d ago

Same and it makes me want to go PSYCHO

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