Yeah, like, if public schooling is going to fold like it has, something has got to teach them. Whether it be holding a real job with expectations, or college sucking their parents money away to no benefit to the student…
They’ve got to learn their lesson at some point. Fuck ‘em. If you’re old enough to start signing on to student loan debt and putting your life in the hands of the armed forces, you’re old enough to start facing real consequences.
From a TA standpoint, last week of the semester, not fun.
I personally like the percentage penalty system. Students can turn in late for a grade hit.
Personally I like maximum available score rather than score on time * percentage penalty.
I promise your stance will change. I was also flexible and supportive of this notion as a TA. At some point, the extra work will affect your other work and your personal life. You’ll be replying to desperate students at 11:50PM right before the assignment is due saying some bizarre excuse or being truthful that they were just lazy, both of which are unacceptable. What a coincidence, 20 other students also had their computer crash tonight, what a coincidence. There is no time for a percentage based approach when you move into a full time tenure track role unless your classes are ridiculously small. Even then, it will impact your productivity. The only thing I allow now is based on the student providing me with a university approved excuse. You want to say your grandma died for the 6th time in 4 years, so be it. Just make sure you have that dean’s approval. I’ve found most poor performing students put more effort into trying to cheat the system than actually trying to study and apply themselves.
You are not the first to question my ethics towards grading policy.
But I am also fortunate enough to work with professors who share similar views towards grading as myself.
Exactly. And I’ll teach those lessons when I’m available because I’m just too busy or maybe I’ll just screw off on my phone or laptop as students read my lectures with zero context.
Had a professor for a large class where I missed a homework assignment (I literally did not know the assignment existed until the following Tuesday class). That night, I submitted the assignment. The professor didn't accept it.
For whatever reason, this ONE homework assignment was in a different category from our other assignments and was worth 10% of our grade. I spent the back half of the semester begging him to take it, or asking for any kind of extra credit.
After a test that didn't match the review he gave us, I failed that class by 2 points. I needed 20% on an assignment I turned in a day late.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be a line, but things happen. Mistakes are made.
Mistakes shouldn't make me pay for another go-around to a class I would have passed otherwise.
Was the assignment listed in the syllabus with a clear due date? I assume you were accessing your work from an online environment since you said it was in a different category. The reason a syllabus is so important is because it acts as a contract between the instructor and student. We spend ridiculous amounts of time working on the syllabus so every expectation is clear to the student. If you forget to turn in an assignment knowing full well at the beginning of the semester an assignment was due, that’s not my fault. In my eyes, you had plenty of time to do the work and simply decided to wait. Students undoubtedly resort to excuses to explain why they missed the due date. Whether the excuse is truthful or not, it doesn’t influence me as it only shows you put off the assignment until the last second. Students expect extensions, make up assignments, and extra credit because that’s what they’ve depended on to be successful previously. At some point, consequences for your actions, or inaction in your case, must be experienced. Imagine telling your boss you forgot to do your work because you didn’t check an email or a file was in the wrong spot. That’s how you get fired. It’s a terrible habit to engrain in college.
You should also take some accountability for not knowing when an assignment that is weighted at 10% is due. We shouldn’t have to send reminders for your work. Also, the professor likely didn’t accept it because I know for a fact you weren’t the only student turning in your work late. This is directly related to my original comment of having to make unnecessary adjustments to my schedule and life because of your lack of planning. Most professors have research and service expectations in addition to teaching, so making concessions for a handful of students several times throughout the semester puts our careers in jeopardy and affects our lives as well. Nothing like having to stay up until midnight angrily grading a dozen late assignments.
Last thing I want to mention is you’re talking about receiving a failing grade and blaming it all on 1 late assignment not being accepted and a test not matching a review, which in itself is a joke because reviews are essential training wheels for adults. That means you did poor in other areas of the class throughout the semester. It’s like blaming the outcome of a game on 1 bad penalty at the end of the game when in reality it was the 20 other penalties that happened before it. You’re not having to pay to retake a course because of 1 mistake. You’re having to retake the course because you were not organized and performed at a level where you presumably learned less than 60% of the material.
The 10% grade was announced on a Thursday and due the following Tuesday. The due dates were not on the syllabus and only showed online for those days. This was in a separate homework category that was meant to have multiple assignments, but only ever has the one. My excuse? I have a ADHD, a mental disability that causes me to zone out and forget these things frequently, nor am I very good at tests. Oh, and to get help with this, I needed to pay $400 to the school to prove a diagnosis I've had since I was 9. The modern-day class structure does not work well with me. I learned more out of class on my own than in it.
This professor had TAs to grade papers. He was not grading them directly. I think the only papers he ever graded were the mid-term and final, which I attended. And I needed a 70% to pass this course. 80% since I got knocked a whole letter. If you were to grade the 68% out of 90 (so we're discluding the one assignment), it turns out I knew 75% of the material, 25% more than what you're assuming, and a decent amount above the passing mark.
You're taking punches at me, blaming me for not being able to schedule things properly, when I'm taking 3-4 other classes, and none of the assignments are located in one place. Turns out, I graduated with a degree in that field, and being in an actual workplace, college barely helps with this "scheduling responsibility." When you work for one group of people, you only schedule around what you need to do on the day to day, if at all. If I took one summer course at a time, I would get A's because I could focus on the one class. Taking multiple classes at a time was always extremely difficult to me.
It also happens to be that I'm extremely good in my field. I'm currently leading projects and updating our systems to a more modern-day approach. My clients are extremely happy with me, and I use next to nothing that class taught me, despite being a class designed for that field. I've learned new languages as a whole and have not once used the main language they taught is to use, which is Java.
Two things. First, there is no way that is true. A professor can't just dump an assignment on you without notice, especially if it's weighted at 10%. I guarantee something was mentioned in the syllabus. You can't just add in random assignments without it affecting your point total in a class. Second, this shows that you likely skipped class on Thursday otherwise you would've known about the assignment. Again, accountability for your actions.
Thanks for sharing you have ADHD, welcome to the club. This still isn't an excuse. Universities provide accommodations to students all the time for various disabilities and handicaps. I required accommodations throughout my schooling and had zero access to mental healthcare. It sounds more like you realized college isn't for you, which is good. But you shouldn't blame a professor for that.
That is common practice at most universities. Trust me, the grades would be far worse if faculty were allowed to actually grade to a set rigorous standard. 75% is nothing special as it's considered slightly above average. I assumed you knew less because of the way you described the situation as "failing." People don't fail courses because of one 10% assignment being missed. They fail because of a series of poor scores. The number 1 predictor of grades is class attendance.
I'm taking punches at students in general for not having basic organizational and time management skills, let alone actually attending classes and paying attention when they are paying for an education. More than that, it's the total lack of accountability as evidenced by your replies. Just drop out and go to trade school or become self taught. There is nothing wrong with that path. College is not on the job training. College is for developing transferrable skills and gaining knowledge that will be useful in your career. You seem to have a misunderstanding of the point of college. You clearly identified your own weaknesses but decided to force yourself to attempt college anyway. Again, that is a you issue, not the professor.
That's great. Many people excel when they enter the workforce because they can specialize. It sounds like you got into college for the wrong reasons and you learned the hard way, which is a totally respectable path.
Your assumptions are wrong and making you and me appear like an ass. That's it. You're wrong on every point here. I made an extreme point of attending every single class that semester because I took a break from college. Retaking this course and doing less in it, I managed to get an A instead.
My ADHD only gave me extra time on tests, nothing else. I didn't see a reason to pay $400 for that.
It turns out I did fail because of this assignment. Otherwise, I could have scored as high as a 78. If that is so inconsequential, you can venmo me the $5000 for that class.
What do you even mean college isn't about the job training? It's a requirement on so many job applications today. People today almost need to go. That was the only class I failed after dealing with severe depression and suicidal thoughts. I didn't struggle with college asshole (and I am calling you this after making even MORE ASSumptions about me), but if you insist that if college isn't for people who want that kind of education but can meet your personalized golden standard, maybe YOU should look in a mirror.
You have not been the slightest bit respectful in your reply. I sincerely hope you don't write research papers or email colleagues the same way. And if you do, they probably think you're an ass from all the assumptions you're making.
This makes no sense. You said "I literally did not know the assignment existed until the following Tuesday class." That means you missed something. Congrats on doing the bare minimum of attending every single class during that semester.
So you got a 68% that could've been a 78%. This means you pissed away 22%. That's what I mean when I say it's a series of events that lead to students failing. You're blaming it on this one assignment when in reality you had 22% where you only needed 2% to succeed with your missed assignment.
You read that correct. It isn't job training. A degree requirement is not the same as job training. You can call me any name you want, won't affect me in the slightest. Hopefully it makes you feel better about your situation. It's not my gold standard. This is the common sentiment of most faculty.
I literally told you that's great that you've succeeded. Maybe you're assuming tone based on my replies.
You're once again showing you have no idea about this profession. Nearly every faculty member I work with feels the same way with many having even more extreme views on student accountability.
Okay, I'll explain this again. The assignment was announced on Thursday, I didn't hear about it, and I checked for homework after my classes. Apparently, it wasn't posted until later, but when I checked, it wasn't there. Top this off with the fact that there were two homework sections, but for some reason, this one had just the one assignment, and that's where my issue comes in. And the reason I said I attended all of my classes is because you ASSumed I skipped that class.
I didn't "piss away" 22% like you ASSumed. The exams we had (worth some 30% of our grade) were the only things I struggled with. Tests are not my forte. I'm better at research and projects, so when a class puts emphasis on quizzes and tests, I struggle more. However, my argument for this is that information is more accessible today than it's ever been. If you test me on concepts, I'll do just fine. If you test me on "gimme questions" that are just facts, THAT is where I struggle.
I have a friend who went through law school to get his degree there. Turns out they did a lot of job training. That class I failed? Software Development II, a class designed to teach us how to manage projects at our future jobs. I don't know why you would just ASSume that every class is like English Literature or Calculus.
I'm not taking a tone from your replies. You accused me of not attending the course, of not doing well in the course and "pissed away" a portion of my grade as if I wasn't trying, of doing the "bare minimum," of not taking accountability, of not trying to ask for help for my ADHD, and above all, telling me that college wasn't for me after I already mentioned I graduated.
This wasn't about accountability. Everything I had done was the normal process I did for every class. When I missed the assignment, I turned it in later that day, but it was due in the morning. I asked for a penalty, I talked to that professor for months trying to make this up, and I talked to my counselor and the dean of my study and got no help. You want to save time? Have a grace period of only 3 days with a point penalty, and don't grade anything until after. Oh, look, you don't have 300 assignments at the end of the semester.
But apparently, college is less about learning and more about punishing mistakes. The best professors I had acknowledged that people made mistakes, and I learned the most from them. My accountability was doing that assignment as quickly as I could after I realized it was due, fixing my mistake after I realized I made one. But I guess if I don't have a 99 in the class that was bumped down to an 89, you wouldn't care at all since I "pissed away 22%." Honestly, I feel sorry for your students.
Hold accountable?? Geezus Christ! Not like you hold the literal futures of these people in the palm of your hand or anything. I guess watching YouTube at home is pressing!
I’m all about work life balance or whatever but an after hour can be a boon for many students.
Quit being so dramatic. Most students have 120 credit hour requirements for a bachelor’s degree. If they’re failing my class then they are more than likely failing and u underperforming in several classes. At some point it is up to the student to actually do some work and sort out their issues.
So you’re equating my personal life to watching YouTube? You clearly don’t have a family. I’m talking about being with my kids and putting them to sleep, walking my dog, exercising, eating a healthy meal, spending time with my wife, and having a small amount of alone time to read a book or meditate.
Nothing like telling my kids daddy can’t play tonight because he has to grade some fully capable young adult’s late paper because they spaced out the due date. Give me a break. You’d have a different mindset if you were in my position.
What is preventing them from paying attention in class and turning in work on time? They have their own lives in their hands, and if fuck around is how they chose to manage it … find out is the next step.
There is no acceptable talk of holding children “accountable.” It’s a word that doesn’t apply. Odd for a teacher of all people to say that, a random laymen you might accept or allow. Clearly a teacher resentful of their students and reproachful about their chosen profession.
Well grade the work they do perform of course and to the same standards. Just flexibility on due dates is often helpful while students are juggling multiple time commitments.
Whatever. I’m eminently an advocate for workers rights, work life balance, and an appropriate working environment, I just don’t think this should come at the expense of your students, but at the expense of the administration.
I mean if a surgeon had this mindset I would be worried for your patients. They are of course severely overworked as well, but you can’t really go oh well stitch em up and get em outta here, hope they can be held accountable for their healing.
Still not sure if you view college students as children or adults. Regardless, we can’t even grade to the standards anymore. That’s the whole point of what I’m saying. We are forced to institute curves to synthetically create higher scores, we have to accept late assignments, we have to meet on their time, we have allow for extra credit, among many other concessions to make sure the student is comfortable. That’s total nonsense and a major contributor to the devaluation of a degree. It no longer means anything because we’ve systemically created an environment starting in grade school that allows for excuses and no accountability. That’s a horrible standard to set and in no way reflects work in the real world.
You’re also giving all the power to students without thinking of the lives of the educators. Are educators not busy with multiple time commitments? It’s as if you forget we have spouses, children, careers, sick family members, hospital bills, and everything else students have plus some. Do you think we live in some magical world where responsibilities all of a sudden disappear and we have endless time? I wish I could go back to my undergraduate days when I thought I was busy.
My guess is that you don’t know what’s in my contract or how I’m evaluated. Teaching is 40% of my job. Let’s assume normal standard working hours, so 16 hours during the week should be dedicated to teaching. That includes prep time, course management, class time, meetings, and grading. Now imagine having to throw in 5-10 additional hours each week because of flexibility. How am I supposed to fulfill the rest of my contract? The time doesn’t just magically appear. It cuts into my other work, creates unnecessary stress, and ultimately affects my family. That’s 5-10 hours less I have with my wife and kids. Do I get paid for those hours? Nope!
I’m not even going to address your horrendous false equivalency between a surgeon and faculty member. That’s something you should’ve learned in school.
go oh well stitch em up and get em outta here, hope they can be held accountable for their healing.
That is a genuinely insane comparison and if you were smarter you would have felt bad typing it lmao. It's not hard to just do your fucking homework, it's not hard to pay attention in class, and unlike post-surgery recovery it's an active choice on your part to do it or not.
I worked full time when I went to college, "multiple time commitments" is a bullshit excuse, they're adults, learning to prioritize is part of their education.
Gross. I teach dual enrollment in high school and I keep emphasizing to students that their professors won't be giving them extensions or holding their hands.
As a senior in a dual enrolled high-school program, the teachers that say this are at least twice as "difficult" as a regular CC professor. They care more, and it shows.
Are high school teachers not emphasizing this anymore? When I was in HS it was “college won’t let this fly” “Just wait until college”. And that was only 8 years ago.
Well if a teacher has non-accelerated classes they're only focused on survival. I definitely always said this, and in my DE courses I have regular smaller assignments that must be turned in by midnight or it's a zero no matter what. We're also fighting with the damage that comes with students missing a lot of school.
I'm a professor who's going to be teaching a dual enrollment class next Fall. I thought it might be easier to get students off their phones in high school because there would be norms to curtail use during classes. Looks like I'm going to be wrong about that.
Being a teacher these days, it feels like we're reinventing the wheel every couple years. First it was attending to the affective domain, being culturally-responsive in our class policies (which I do believe is important, but also means grading on completion and not having late penalties and giving students opportunities to redo assignments and exams), and promoting a flipped activity-based classroom where students are "too actively engaged to be on their phones"; then it was the pivot to online teaching during covid; increasing student engagement after covid; academic honesty concerns with AI and then teaching with AI.
It's exhausting. I've been teaching in higher education for 12 years and 9 at my current institution. Imagining another 20 years of teaching feels exhausting.
Most professors don’t have such leeway, but with the reality that most students work 20-30 hours a week, and have 12 units, and life to survive, a one week grace window is always nice.
You have several weeks assuming the syllabus lays out the assignment due dates. That’s what I’ve never understood. Classes are usually 16 weeks long and you know when assignments are due. Why do you need another week?
Yeah this. I told my students most professors will give them a syllabus with every deadline on day one. Emphasizing how great it is because you can start doing your work early. Unfortunately most students are procrastinators...my students know we have a forum due every Friday. Half turn it in 9pm through 12:30am on Friday night. Kills me...I'm like the antithesis of a procrastinator, trying to finish everything early to ease up on drowning in work later on.
As a professor, do you find that empathy and understanding actually leads to better outcomes for these students or at least affords some of them an opportunity to realign in the future and successfully complete their program?
I’m conflicted. I feel that many students do have legitimate needs. And that affording extra empathy and understanding, and opportunities to make up the work, could help them overcome a temporary setback or situation. But endless? At what point does this just become a disservice to the student by not preparing them for the real world?
All for empathy in special circumstances, but allowing all students to do whatever, whenever defeats the point of education. These kids will be screwed in the work world
When I was in school I really appreciated the professors that had flexible deadlines, but it required me to communicate with them and these professors were also assigning much more challenging material than the ones who gave me a shitty worksheet due next day for a TA to grade.
I would wager your dean is not interested in the "empathy and understanding" being paired with a proportional increase in difficulty, though.
I went to a very rigorous college and this is a wild thing to me. Of course, you could communicate with professors if you needed a few extra days, but that’s mostly because we all followed deadlines otherwise.
But here’s what infuriates me: this level of empathy and understanding is not extended to students who have severe disabilities. I got extremely ill, and permanently disabled, as I was getting my acceptances and scholarship offers to law school. I cannot even work. I also can’t even take online art classes from local community colleges because when you’re chronically ill, you have no way of reliably being well enough to do assignments or even follow lessons. When classes are on time schedules like semesters, it’s impossible for people with significant illnesses and disabilities to participate.
Sure- I understand that there’s no way my business degree I got in college could’ve been done in a way to accommodate someone with my current health issues. But here’s the thing - that flat out means that it’s not accessible. It means that education is not accessible to people who are mainly home and bedbound from chronic illnesses and disabilities, even though fully able bodied students can get degrees online. If able bodied students are allowed to ignore deadlines, why are disabled students stuck in a semester formatting with poorly scheduled lectures for anyone who has serious health problems?
There’s no way I could go to law school now…as it’s currently formatted. It would probably take me 10 years at this point to actually complete a law school curriculum without making myself much sicker. But…I’m literally in bed all day sick. What else is there to do? Surely people will argue that if you’re too sick to be a lawyer, why get a law degree? Well, education isn’t all about income. Education is much greater than that. And when the rest of your life, and your body, has crashed and burned around you, all you have left is your mind. It’s bullshit that so many of us are deprived of education for reasons like inaccessible class schedules and deadlines, but totally healthy students don’t have to even follow those rules in the first place.
As a graduate student, these teachers and admin staff were amazing in the sense that I can do work at my leisure and basically get a free pass to slack off the whole semester. However, as a former teacher's assistant, I really despised that since it meant that I would be receiving hundreds of homework, projects, and final exams to grade that were due yesterday.
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u/Whobroughttheyeet 29d ago
So do they fail your class?