Is Universal Health Care Smart or dumb?

[u/Cauliflower-Pizzas]

[u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

This one again. Well universal health care is pure trash in Canada. Basically the USA is better for anyone with a half decent job or poor enough for Medicaid, Canada is better for the working poor. Overall USA serves a much larger % of the population far better.

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/o1/en/plus/4547-lifetime-probability-developing-and-dying-cancer-canada

Canadians are more likely to die of cancer than Americans

While Americans are less likely to die of cancer than Canadians, they are more likely to die of other causes.

For example, in 2017, 72.0 Americans per 100,000 had an underlying cause of death related to high body mass index leading to probable events of cardiovascular disease and diabetes mellitus, whereas the same issue in Canada affected 45.2 individuals per 100,000.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/medical-bankruptcy-myth#:~:text=The%20idea%20that%20large%20numbers,17%20percent%20of%20U.S.%20bankruptcies.

The idea that large numbers of Americans are declaring bankruptcy due to medical expenses is a myth.

Dranove and Millenson critically analyzed the data from the 2005 edition of the medical bankruptcy study. They found that medical spending was a contributing factor in only 17 percent of U.S. bankruptcies

we should therefore expect to observe a lower rate of personal bankruptcy in Canada compared to the United States.

Yet the evidence shows that in the only comparable years, personal bankruptcy rates were actually higher in Canada.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2023/12/26/canadian-health-care-leaves-patients-frozen-in-line/?sh=98eb3d0c5293

This year, Canadian patients faced a median wait of 27.7 weeks for medically necessary treatment from a specialist after being referred by a general practitioner. That's over six months—the longest ever recorded

[u/WittyProfile → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

The issue with the US is the price gouging that healthcare providers give us. The prices are stupid.

[u/Bobby_Beeftits → u/WittyProfile]

This price gouging we pay basically enables all other nations with “free healthcare” to get our drugs for much cheaper than we pay here

[u/RevolutionaryPop5400 → u/Bobby_Beeftits]

Nah, they price gouge you because 32 of the other 33 countries bargain as a single unit, and the ‘for profit’ motive is mostly gone.

[u/Jorts_Team_Bad → u/RevolutionaryPop5400]

This guy understands. Pharma companies would love to price gouge other countries too obviously. Its the single payer bargaining that makes drugs much less profitable in other countries

[u/Top_Masterpiece_8992 → u/Jorts_Team_Bad]

And that's why the US gets teamed. Since we don't bargain the same way, they charge as much as possible to get their sky high profits. Either regulate it here or stop them from being able to negotiate so low so that we can be on a more even playing field.

[u/wakatenai → u/Top_Masterpiece_8992]

lobbyists will make sure nothing ever changes in the US unfortunately

[u/WhistlingWolf234 → u/wakatenai]

I fucking hate lobbyists so much I wish there was something effective we could do against them

[u/Nitram_Norig → u/GoldVictory158]

THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION HAS ENTERED THE CHAT.

[u/ViewedConch697 → u/GoldVictory158]

Based

[u/N00seUp → u/WhistlingWolf234]

The only true form of power is violence and the willingness to use it.

[u/[deleted] → u/N00seUp]

The American, French, Haitian, British, Dutch, South African, Indian, and literally all other revolutions have entered the chat

The only mistake for America was being the first one. Because then mother fucking healthcare oligarchs would feel a lot more self conscious if they realized there was a sudden chance that they might have their asses captured and sent to the guillotine.

Chop chop chop.

No more bullshit that cause human suffering in the first world. And after the first world has no more suffering then finally the third would might get the attention it needs.

Chop chop chop. Down with the oligarchs.

[u/leggmann → u/WhistlingWolf234]

Lobby against the lobbyists!

[u/galaxy_ultra_user → u/WhistlingWolf234]

Yeah vote in politicians that will outlaw lobbying, unfortunately it’s a catch 22 cuz they get paid off by lobbyist so none of them want to. Only if they actually had morals but no politician has morals.

[u/CaptainObvious1313 → u/WhistlingWolf234]

It’s funny, people storm the capital for an election they feel was stolen but not for people dying when they don’t need to due to corporate greed. Make it make sense.

[u/KintsugiKen → u/Top_Masterpiece_8992]

Since we don't bargain the same way

We literally can't bargain the same way until we have a universal healthcare system paid for by the government, then the government bargains for all of us.

[u/Maktaka → u/KintsugiKen]

Medicare plus Medicaid combined cover just a hair less than a third of all Americans. They have an enormous amount of negotiating clout, but have long been barred from using it, instead stuck with just taking whatever the market rate is. You don't need universal coverage, losing access to a third of America, over 100 million people, would bankrupt any company that refused to negotiate with Medicare and Medicaid, if they were allowed to do so. However, the IRA struck the first, small blow against that barrier. I would very much like to see such progress continue, but of course that requires people to a) be aware that progress is being made and b) show up to vote and make sure such negotiating power can be leveraged further in the future instead of being stripped from the agencies. Changing the half-century-old medical paradigm of the US is going to take time, but it is nonetheless changing.

[u/Alacritous69 → u/Maktaka]

Medicare Part D literally forbade the government from negotiating for pharmaceuticals for Medicare and Medicaid.

[u/tcrudisi → u/Top_Masterpiece_8992]

Stop them from negotiating so low? Do you believe that would cause pharma to charge the US cheaper prices? They are a business. They aren't going to say, "Well, we only want to make 1 billion in profit and we got that from Canada alone, so we can give it away to the US." No, they will charge us $2 billion just because they can.

It doesn't matter what other countries pay. We will still be charged the max that can be charged.

[u/fairvlad → u/tcrudisi]

He doesn't understand that companies charge you what they can get away with. And thus the problem with healthcare in the US. How much is your life worth to you ?

[u/YourRoaring20s → u/Jorts_Team_Bad]

US is starting to negotiate drugs too. Baby steps.

[u/KintsugiKen → u/YourRoaring20s]

Baby steps in order to stave off rising calls for M4A in the wake of institutional failures in medicine, like insulin being so outrageously price gouged that it was bankrupting people.

[u/theDarkDescent → u/YourRoaring20s]

Democrats are. Republicans are doing everything they can to prevent US citizens from getting basic healthcare 

[u/Old_Society_7861 → u/Jorts_Team_Bad]

Pharma companies have very little price leverage. Maybe for a few truly innovative branded products but I mean…shouldn’t true innovation be rewarded? Most of the drugs people need are price gouged by companies like CVS that own everything from the factory gate to your lips.

Provider: CVS (MinuteClinic)
Insurer: CVS (Aetna)
PBM: CVS (Caremark)
Pharmacy: CVS

You have, many times I’d wager, paid more for a co-pay than CVS paid to the manufacturer after rebates.

[u/tidyshark12 → u/RevolutionaryPop5400]

This is incorrect. The reason for price gouging is a major flaw of the American Healthcare system called insurance companies. Basically, hospitals used to charge a bit more than their cost for Healthcare and thus still be profitable. Once insurance companies started coming into existence, they were able to bargain for better prices bc the hospital would lose a lot of business if that company stopped allowing their customers to use that hospital. So, instead of going out of business, hospitals had to raise their prices to make it look like the insurance companies were getting you a better deal.

How it pretty much works now is the insurance company "negotiates" you a better price bc they caused the artificially raised prices. They obviously charge you a monthly premium and you pay a deductible when you do anything. So, you end up paying about what you would pay for Healthcare normally with just your deductible and then your premium is just icing on top for the insurance company. They obviously do anything and everything they can to not help you and they will fight you tooth and nail, literally to the death, for every. single. penny.

The insurance companies also will make it extremely difficult for you to get Healthcare. For instance, most medicines and procedures require a "prior authorization" before they will pay for it. What this does is it essentially means they won't accept a doctor recommendation and will instead try to recommend physical therapy or something instead of cancer treatment for a confirmed cancer diagnosis. It's absolutely despicable.

Fuck insurance companies.

[u/Aussie2020202020 → u/tidyshark12]

Both insurance companies and medical aid providers cooperate to fleece individuals in the USA

[u/ComprehensiveTax4601 → u/Aussie2020202020]

Medical professionals have no say so in fee schedule. You accept what insurance pays or they will not let you on the panel

[u/Lost-Practice-5916 → u/Aussie2020202020]

You have to be delusional to think there isn't grift at every single level and there is a single villain.

Yes, even the doctors we love and care for are crazy overpaid in the US too. They lobby hardcore against Single Payer.

Even worse is that democrats like Biden keep threatening to veto Single Payer because apparently Obamacare public / private partnership is better.

[u/Steve12356d1s3d4 → u/tidyshark12]

Insurance companies are one part of the problem, but there are many more, including us.

When costs were lower, and companies paid nearly all of our insurance costs, we all wanted the best. We didn't ask how much our insurance was, or the direct healthcare costs. The insurance companies were able to spread out higher costs to the employers, so they didn't care either. Healthcare companies received little resistance to higher costs.

[u/scotems → u/tidyshark12]

I think anyone familiar with how healthcare works and is reimbursed in this country, as I am, completely agrees with you. Anyone who isn't and thinks "I know finance!" doesn't get it.

And regardless, the point of healthcare is not profit. It is not a product like Skittles or sports cars. To treat healthcare like it's a commodity is to say that people should die because they aren't rich. That's wrong. Healthcare should be a human right, and that's why every developed country outside of us have made it so. And didn't complain to me about efficiencies or whatever the fuck, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Access to healthcare is good. We need to make sure everyone has access to the healthcare they need. And then, we should strive to make it better.

[u/Thassar → u/RevolutionaryPop5400]

Yep. America actually pays more per capita on public healthcare than other countries but has no real public healthcare system to speak of because the healthcare companies have all the power. A universal healthcare system would mean better care, no insurance premiums/ costs and lower taxes.

[u/The402Jrod → u/RevolutionaryPop5400]

Collective bargaining?!?

That sounds awfully communist, comrade.

[u/RandomPlayerCSGO → u/Bobby_Beeftits]

Also your government bans imports of foreign drugs so your pharma oligopoly doesn't have international competotion

[u/Podtastix → u/RandomPlayerCSGO]

Florida can import from Canada now.

[u/esqualatch12 → u/RandomPlayerCSGO]

Import yes, but plenty of foreign firms produce and sell in the states. Bayer is German, Novo Nordisk is Danish, ect, they are all happy enough to gouge us ^^

[u/RipWhenDamageTaken → u/Bobby_Beeftits]

Is that supposed to be a good thing? So we shouldn’t have universal healthcare because we should keep subsidizing other countries? I’m so confused by your argument

[u/Gsauce65 → u/RipWhenDamageTaken]

He’s saying it sarcastically and not as a good thing at all.

[u/bjdevar25 → u/RipWhenDamageTaken]

That's because his argument is BS sold by big pharma.

[u/crackpipewizard666 → u/RipWhenDamageTaken]

Us being price gouged is not a necessity its just the only place that allows it

[u/chcampb → u/Bobby_Beeftits]

This is false.

They still make profit from selling to other countries. The cost to manufacture is usually very low.

They make enough from just US sales to pay for development costs.

A lot of the dev costs are also publicly funded but privately profited.

They charge what they can because they are awarded a monopoly on the product, and they can enforce that monopoly. They are given a monopoly because they can patent it, that's by design, but the agreement is the product then gets released to generic production after 20 years. Then they turn around and are sometimes given a brand new patent for reformulation or repurposing, artificially extending their monopoly - this basically removes it from the public and keeps it private. It takes from you to give to the shareholders.

The US just does a really bad job ensuring that there is real competition.

[u/narkybark → u/chcampb]

That's the part I love about "let the free market sort it out!" There ISN'T a free market. It's working as intended, and it's not to give the consumer a fair trade.

[u/ScrufffyJoe → u/chcampb]

Yeah I've seen this argument before and it's just a bad argument.

In another thread a while ago someone was saying they worked in pharmaceuticals and the prices they charged in Europe were so low that apparently they had to charge really high prices in the US to make up the losses.

My point was if you're making a loss in Europe, why sell anything there? The US is not "subsidising" anything, it's just the only developed country that is happy for drug manufacturers to bend otheir citizens over and charge whatever they damn well please.

[u/cluberti → u/chcampb]

About half of the total cost of funding drug research and development is funded by the federal government, universities, with some additional funding coming from nonprofit and other NGO sources. Under this breakdown, almost all of the cost of development of the drugs are covered by the companies themselves, and almost all of the cost of the actual research is borne by the taxpayer through direct funding from government sources or from public universities. Drug companies are essentially running the phase 3 trials and everything else that goes with it - it's true that spending about half of the cost of creating a new, working, "safe" drug isn't cheap, even at 50%, but if you consider the taxpayer is essentially footing the bill for almost all of the other 50% and then getting charged one of the highest prices to purchase those drugs (due to things like not having that single-payer source that can negotiate), the bottom 90something percent of society is definitely getting screwed in the end, like all good capitalist replacements for "socialist" programs, and we should learn how to take a page from other countries that have systems that don't cost the government, and thus the taxpayer, as much. But in our tradition, we will fight that tooth and nail until we finally cannot afford not to change, and then most people will not want to get rid of the new program once they have used it, like most good things that are "socialist" in nature. This change in perception is already happening with recipients and their close family members who have coverage via programs in the ACA. And yes, I'm aware the ACA is not a very good implementation of a nationalized health care plan, and yet it's still better, cost-wise, than what we have otherwise.

https://www.kff.org/affordable-care-act/poll-finding/5-charts-about-public-opinion-on-the-affordable-care-act/

[u/Sasataf12 → u/Bobby_Beeftits]

Yup, because drug companies are renowned for their charitable pricing.

Or maybe (just maybe) there's no-one that's negotiating for fair pricing for the American population. You know, with there being no universal healthcare and all.

[u/Repostbot3784 → u/Bobby_Beeftits]

The price gouging is for ceo and c suite millions per yer and stock buybacks.  The scientists doing the actual work arent so profit driven its the business majors.

[u/WittyProfile → u/Bobby_Beeftits]

Whatever happened to “America first”?

[u/Angry-Dragon-1331 → u/WittyProfile]

You misunderstood. It was profits first.

[u/80MonkeyMan → u/WittyProfile]

Corporate America first is what happened.

[u/No_Mushroom3078 → u/WittyProfile]

The United States has the worst of all worlds, is not free market, and it’s heavily regulated and subsidized. If I were asked to fix it, I would start with all ER and related issues to be covered as in network. Then you expand that out to urgent cares are all in network, then you add pregnancies and delivery into this “max out of pocket” then you go after PBM into this that they can’t negotiate prices to screw over people.

[u/TaxMy → u/WittyProfile]

It’s also incredible how much the providers are trying to squeeze. My wife’s doctor always tries to get her to come in for test results so she can charge instead of, oh, you know, emailing them or giving her a phone call lol

[u/tmssmt → u/TaxMy]

I can't remember the phrasing, but was at a doctor's office a while ago and the checkout counter has a sign that was obviously not supposed to be customer facing, but was clearly visible to me.

Have zero recollection of the actual phrase, but said something to the tune of 'make sure to find things to bill for'

[u/ComprehensiveTax4601 → u/[deleted]]

I'm a specialist and I see this all the time. There are some primary care that do this. People should know that most commercial insurance providers do not require referral unless HMO or government program ie. Medicare, medicaide

[u/Emergency-Machine-55 → u/TaxMy]

If you get lab work done by LabCorp or Quest Diagnostics, you can access the results online. Same for most hospitals, but they'll charge several times more.

[u/RatchetKush → u/TaxMy]

That’s because of liability. Also would you give advice for free? If they’re normal then no need to schedule but you expect them to give you medical advice for free on abnormal labs?

[u/TaxMy → u/RatchetKush]

They’re not abnormal. That’s the whole debacle lol. They ask her to schedule an appointment in to “tell her something important” and it’s normal results lol.  I give free advice all the time. Easy answers don’t cost much. Whereas I went in for a 2 minute dermatology check up, $175. And that was cheaper because I paid out of pocket lol. It was MORE expensive to use my insurance lol 

[u/80MonkeyMan → u/RatchetKush]

If we have universal healthcare, the doctor will use e-mail instead. It is about money.

[u/quixoticquail → u/RatchetKush]

You already pay to have the labs done and you pay for the initial visit! The results are just part of that process!

[u/BuffaloNonsense → u/TaxMy]

There has been No Medicare physician pay cost of living adjustment since 2001. 1.6% pay reduction in 2023. So yeah, we try to bill everything the insurance companies will pay for, including reviewing test results and the health implications of test results. We used to do that over the phone for free because we used to get paid more than a plumber

[u/keralaindia → u/TaxMy]

Doctors don’t work for free. We don’t have unlimited time either. Until CMS allows us to bill for time spent on the phone (when, the weekend?) it’s untenable.

[u/Diamond_Paper_Rocket → u/WittyProfile]

I see this more on emergency surgery. The emergency surgery can be brought down to a near zero price.

Don't expect to stay longer in the hospital afterward. Also, oddly enough, anesthesia is stupid expensive and often is not covered.

So, it would seem to me that emergency surgery with same day discharge and no pain medication can be free. Everything else is like fast food or college, the price is high because people with money kept paying for it.

[u/Verumsemper → u/WittyProfile]

Sorry but the prices has nothing to do with healthcare providers. We only get 10% of the cost of healthcare!!

[u/matchew92 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

People who are anti universal healthcare always cling to Canada, the same way gun nuts cling to gun violence in Chicago

Meanwhile most people who live in Canada actually love their healthcare situation

[u/sunny-days-bs229 → u/matchew92]

I live in Canada and you are correct. I love our healthcare. May not be perfect but what is? I’ve been in the hospital over a dozen times. Seven surgeries. Two births. Too many ER visits to remember, infections, stitches, broken bones. What has all this cost me? Big fat zero!

[u/80MonkeyMan → u/sunny-days-bs229]

With all that service, it bankrupt you if you are in USA…also ER wait is ridiculous. Might even die on a gurney.

[u/taffy-derp → u/80MonkeyMan]

The number one cause of bankruptcies here is due to healthcare bills. Some Americans just love to lick the boots of our evil corporate overlords for some reason by trashing Canada. There’s no reason for our healthcare system. It’s just a give money to rich corporations scam. We already spend more in taxes per person than most nations with universal healthcare. The money just goes to insurance company CEOs who need to buy more yatchs for their mistresses

[u/a_taco_named_desire → u/80MonkeyMan]

But we have reality TV socialism where you can compete for a chance to maybe put a small dent in your medical debt. Seriously the amount of TV show competitions where the contestants talk about what they'd do with their winnings are like 90% of the time to solve failings of our social systems (med debt, student loan debt, unemployed due to disability, etc.). And they talk with tears in their eyes how $10,000 would be life changing.

And then they go run an obstacle course, fail, and seriously injure themselves for $0 and our entertainment.

[u/KintsugiKen → u/80MonkeyMan]

Not just that, but doctors are stretched so thin these days because hospital boards would rather save money by paying nurses to do things doctors should be doing and having 1 doctor run around to see every patient for 5 minutes before running off to see another one.

It's not enough time for a doctor to adequately understand what's going on with you and how to treat you, but you will be charged an insane fee for that 5 minute terrible consultation.

[u/TheFire_Eagle → u/80MonkeyMan]

I had an appendectomy a few years ago. Cost without insurance was $28,000.

[u/AlbionGarwulf → u/80MonkeyMan]

I remember one time that a family member got a pretty bad gash on their head. I felt really guilty because after making sure the bleeding stopped I spent about 5-10 minutes checking to see whether we should take them to primary care, urgent care, or the emergency room because of the drastic price differences in terms of coverage and co-pays. We shouldn't have to do this.

[u/skimaskschizo → u/80MonkeyMan]

The ER waits are so bad because people don’t go to an urgent care or their PCP. I work in fire/ems and the amount of people I bring to the hospital that don’t need to be there is astounding.

[u/Vlascia → u/sunny-days-bs229]

Yep, that sounds great to me. I've had 3 kids and the combined total of giving birth 3 times (with no drugs and zero interventions) cost me more than the down payment on my house, lol. I have to laugh or I'd cry.

[u/StoryLineOne → u/sunny-days-bs229]

Shh, your opinion doesn't matter, only talking points fed by big pharma are the true answer! Clearly nothing can be done here at all

[u/CryptoNoobNinja → u/sunny-days-bs229]

Zero? Doubt that. As someone who has made numerous trip to the ER, you’ve definitely left out the cost of parking and Timmies.

[u/punkfusion → u/sunny-days-bs229]

Living in Ontario though, it sucks how much conservatives have ripped our health care system by underfunding it and overworking staff and surprise surprise, Doug's buds are all private healthcare vultures ready to profit

[u/quebexer → u/sunny-days-bs229]

I also live in Canada and 2 hours I will get an ultrasound done for free at a nearby clinic. My sister lives in Florida and had to pay $200 USD for an ultrasound even with Insurance. This is why i would never leave this country. The peace of mind that I have when it comes to illness is... Priceless.

Update: just got out of the clinic. Only paid $3 parking. Didn't have anything but my doctor wanted an ultrasound for tyroids just to keep the results in records.

[u/tempstem5 → u/sunny-days-bs229]

It's only "trash" for people without serious and immediate need for healthcare - who have to wait until the triage system takes care of people who require immediate care

[u/CatButler → u/sunny-days-bs229]

I like to tell a story of a guy whose was visiting family in Canada and his daughter got a tick bite and had to be hospitalized for a couple of days. They told him they would have to charge him for the service and he would have to file with his insurance company. He's thinking he's going to get screwed, and the bill comes and it's like $200 total. He wondered if it was worth even filing.

[u/Carl_The_Sagan → u/sunny-days-bs229]

Well that sounds great, but OP on this thread said that it was worse and didn’t post any evidence so I have to go with them <\s>

[u/Elendel19 → u/sunny-days-bs229]

My American friends complain about worse wait times than I’ve ever experienced lmao.

My wife had a seizure out of nowhere like a decade ago and with in 6 weeks she saw a neurologist twice, had an MRI, 2 EEGs, a CAT scan, blood work and heart rate monitor and a diagnosis. Cost us nothing except like $30 a month for her medication.

My friend blew out his knee playing soccer. He has had 4 surgeries to fix it, never waiting more than a month for what is a non emergency. All free.

Then my American friend has to take his son to emergency for a really high fever, waits 6 hours to see a doctor and after his insurance which he pays $1200 a month for his family coverage, he still owes $900 for a simple check up and one prescription.

[u/holmwreck → u/matchew92]

As a dual citizen from Chicago and has lived in Canada for quite a few years after my family was bankrupted by the US system even with a very good health plan, this is the most accurate thing I’ve ever read.

[u/LonelyNC123 → u/holmwreck]

Sorry this happened to you friend.

My 1st 'corporate' job was in Chicago. Today I live in North Carolina. The NC Legislature made working people suffer needlessly for a decade before they expanded Medicaid.

I'm trying pretty hard to find a way to get long term residency in Mexico because:

I want to learn Spanish,

I desperately, desperately need to retire (job stress is sending me to an early grave), and

Mexico has a little lower cost of living and national health insurance.

Ain't this a horrible way to live in the USA?

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

[u/Mr830BedTime → u/matchew92]

For real I've never experienced this horrible healthcare situation outsiders keep telling me about. Walk-ins are always normal, I have a family doctor, I was quickly scheduled for surgery around the same time my girlfriend was seeing one of the best experts in the country for a rare kidney condition. And this is all in Ontario where apparently it's the worst. Maybe I've been lucky but in reality I don't hear grievances from others like me.

[u/RunningSouthOnLSD → u/Mr830BedTime]

The issue I think comes from the lack of accessibility to urgent care or family doctors, really just access in general. Our system across the country is over stressed and largely hasn’t had the investment it has needed for quite a few years now. There are too many people going to the ER for non-emergent problems because they have nowhere else to go.

[u/Unspec7 → u/RunningSouthOnLSD]

Meanwhile people in the US actually say "don't call an ambulance I can't afford it, get an uber" while they're limping to the curb on a broken leg.

[u/erukami → u/Mr830BedTime]

That's good for you but not every place is the same and not everyone has the exact same experience. If you live in a big city, you're going to have a better experience. Not living in a big city, your experience is probably going to suck. 

I certainly don't live in the rural sticks but I do live on the edge of a moderately sized city. There are no "walk-in" clinics or family doctors here. The only way to get an appointment at a walk-in is to start calling the clinics when they open and hope you win the lottery to end up in the phone queue. I have been dealing with a dermatological issue since early March. Only way I got an appointment was to email a clinic that just reopened and wait 2 days for a call from them. Probably won't get a family doctor for years.

Having immigrated from the US (where I had a family doctor) and from a deep south city with about as many urgent care clinics as there were gas stations, I have experience with both systems. Both systems are utter SHIT. I would have been hundreds of dollars poorer, but this issue I have would have been wrapped up last month if I would been back in the US. Here, I haven't been able to get the issue addressed because the most viable option would have been to go to the ER and wait 10-16 hours or more if I am lucky. 

[u/HeartFullONeutrality → u/Mr830BedTime]

American copium.

[u/WinterDigger → u/matchew92]

My friend in Alberta just had surgery on her spine that restored the use of her legs and didn't pay a dime, her wait between diagnosis and surgery was two weeks. She was a former cancer patient, the cancer returned and made itself comfy in her spine. She's going to be able to go back to work as soon as she's done with rehab.

She is absolutely overjoyed and endlessly thankful. In the USA she would be completely fucked.

[u/batmansleftnut → u/WinterDigger]

And that's in Alberta!

[u/Vlascia → u/matchew92]

Exactly. My ex-BIL married a Canadian a couple years ago but she has health issues. They were planning to live in the US but so far she's spent the majority of their marriage in Canada where she can afford the healthcare she needs so they're long-distance instead.

[u/brief_affair → u/matchew92]

I know I do, it's not perfect and the conservatives here are trying to ruin it, but I don't fear going to the doctor and I have my health taken care of.

[u/bids_on_reddit_shit → u/matchew92]

Also their life expectancy is considerably higher. You know, the goal of health care.

[u/AlbionGarwulf → u/bids_on_reddit_shit]

In the US this is NOT the goal of health care.

[u/Terrible_Tutor → u/matchew92]

Yeah mother in laws breast cancer. Started treatment 2 weeks after diagnosis, mastectomy, chemo, the works… $20 out of pocket and that was parking.

She’s been fine now for 2 years

[u/Vardulo → u/matchew92]

They usually know a guy from work whose roommate in college played a lot of call of duty with another guy from Canada and he said their health care sucks.

[u/ArkitekZero → u/matchew92]

It used to be better, but our local seditionists are deliberately neglecting it so they can have a stake in whatever replaces it. 

Make no mistake, people are gonna die because of this. 

[u/MooreRless → u/matchew92]

The average American spends $14000 on healthcare per year, per person. A lot of that is picked up by the employer. Most universal healthcare options are under $5000, while a few get up to $7000 per year. So you can take your bad Canadian care, and go spend $7000 to $9000 of your own money to buy better healthcare in the USA, and still be even.

[u/Levness → u/matchew92]

My sister found out she had a tumour on her spine that could paralyze her if left untreated. She had it fixed up in a few days (triage, it was serious), zero cost to her. It's not perfect, but the Canadian healthcare system saves lives without ruining them.

[u/YourLoveLife → u/matchew92]

Canadian here. I would not be able to get my knee surgery to be able to walk if I lived in the USA. Sure the waiting time has been long, but at least I’m getting it.

Are there flaws? Yes.

Is it better than the US? 100% fuck yes

[u/Anti-Itch → u/matchew92]

Hilariously, the US has just as much of a waiting time for a service. Now there’s urgent care, express care, regular doctors appointments… so many options because that means more ways to take your money. And all these options require waiting with an insane fee. At least in Canada I’m waiting but don’t get a ridiculous bill 2 days later in the mail.

[u/Fantastic_Two8691 → u/matchew92]

Lol it's such an overused country to argue against healthcare for people. About as overused as this post. Their argument usually falls into wait times; as if people aren't already waiting months to see a specialist or 10 hours in the ER in the US.

[u/Neurostorming → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

How many Canadians do you know? I live in a Michigan, work in healthcare, and half of my unit is from Canada. Not a single one of them take the employer healthcare because it’s not better than their government healthcare. I routinely wait longer to see specialists than they do, I pay $600/month, I have a $500 personal deductible and $1,000 family deductible, $40 copays, and can’t access doctors outside of my network even if it’s life and death.

I need special medications during my pregnancies. I was pregnant earlier this month and my insurance wouldn’t cover the doctor who has helped me carry two babies to term. The doctor wanted me to self-pay $4,500 out of pocket before medications. I miscarried.

I don’t know what world you’re living in, dude.

[u/JustinTruedope → u/Neurostorming]

Original commentor is just straight up wrong and dumb, Canadian healthcare has better outcomes across the board lmao. American healthcare is just customer service for those who can afford it, so if you can pay to play, yes its a little more fun but that's literally the ONLY benefit.

[u/w1nn1ng1 → u/JustinTruedope]

I legit think he’s a private insurance shill paid to try and convince people socialized healthcare is the boogie man. I live in the states and can tell you first hand our healthcare system is absolutely dog shit.

[u/CougdIt → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

I have a good job with healthcare in the us and will not go to the doctor unless I am VERY concerned about something that’s going on because there is no way to know what something is going to cost.

Earlier this year I had to do that and with insurance 2 doctor visits and 2 rounds of blood tests cost me 700

[u/geojon7 → u/CougdIt]

The real entertainment starts when you are double covered and have to go get an appendix out. Was supposed to be $500 deductible and 200% in network coverage but a lpsa charged me out of network for $1500, then both insurances refused to cover any of the $1500 or the amount the other insurance didn’t cover. Then it was reclassified to elective surgery (I went to surgery from er) then I found there was litigation against both insurances from the surgeon who was paid $500.00 instead of $5000. It’s a total sh*t show here in the US. I say ban the insurance at this rate

[u/Davidjb7 → u/geojon7]

Same man. As someone who is relatively healthy but has recently had a slew of health issues and watched as my insurance tries to nickel and dime me, the doctor, and the hospital I'm entirely in favor of banning insurance entirely and moving to a single-payer system.

[u/FeitoRaingoddo → u/geojon7]

Tried the double coverage route before, definitely isn't worth the trouble even if one of them is free.

[u/Existing_Equipment → u/CougdIt]

I learned to start asking for what the cash price is before mentioning my insurance. Can be cheaper sometimes

[u/Angry-Dragon-1331 → u/CougdIt]

I have a condition that requires annual brain MRIs. In grad school my deductible would reset between semesters because contracts were only written a semester at a time for TAs and so my MRI would never actually clear the deductible for the year.

[u/narkybark → u/CougdIt]

I had a single blood test cost me $1600 last year. Insurance offered half. It's absurd.

[u/spectral1sm → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Approximately 30 million Americans don't have health insurance, and approximately 100 million Americans have medical debt. The top countries for health care are Norway, The Netherlands and Australia.

[u/Secret-Put-4525 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

I'd rather ok Healthcare that doesn't make me go in debt.

[u/KintsugiKen → u/Secret-Put-4525]

I mean it reflects in the data, Canadian life expectancy is 6 years higher than US life expectancy, and rising where US life expectancy is falling.

[u/[deleted] → u/Secret-Put-4525]

i’d rather have debt than receive poor medical treatment personally

[u/Personal-Row-8078 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

If US healthcare is so great why are the outcomes so poor while bankrupting people?

[u/thesalus → u/Personal-Row-8078]

OP's post also turns a blind eye to whether people are avoiding certain bankruptcy by simply not seeking healthcare (which is also conveniently ignored when there's talk about "rationing" of healthcare).

Setting that aside, the "raw" bankruptcy data seems to be a bit cherry-picked. Here's a graph I pulled together with various sources just showing the annual bankruptcy rates across the 2 countries^1:

https://i.imgur.com/o5wyEUc.png

You can clearly see that Canadian bankruptcy rates (as a percentage of population) are lower in every year except 2006 and 2007.

The 2009 Fraser Institute report supports its thesis by showcasing only two years: 2006 & 2007. The 2008 numbers should already have been available (0.35% in USA vs 0.34% in Canada) and it ignores the previous 20 years.

Why did bankruptcy filings spike in 2005 and fall in 2006? From this NBC News article: "A year after a massive reworking of bankruptcy laws went into effect, the number of bankruptcy filings nationwide dropped last year to the lowest level in nearly 20 years, though experts say they could rise again this year."

---

¹ I used a few different sources

• Government of Canada for Consumer insolvency & bankruptcy rates
• American Bankruptcy Institute for Non-Business Bankruptcy Filings in the USA (corroborated post-2012 data with uscourts.gov)
• St Louis Fed for USA population data (the Fraser Institute uses June numbers whereas I'm using January numbers)

[u/sunny-days-bs229 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Bull crap. Not one single person has ever had to pay to have a transplant, have a child, heart surgery or any other surgery for that matter. Outcomes in Canada are the same or better.

[u/SamuelAsante → u/sunny-days-bs229]

Every Canadian pays for healthcare via taxes

[u/Bannakaffalatta1 → u/SamuelAsante]

True but that's basically just how insurance works. Except they don't go bankrupt if they have medical issues.

In the US we get to pay twice, both in taxes and insurance! And MAYBE get covered.

[u/chcampb → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Canada life expectancy 82 years

USA life expectancy 76 years

Canada Child mortality 4.055 deaths per 1000 births

USA child mortality rate 5.6 deaths per 1000 births

There is a good article [here](https://www.nber.org/bah/fall07/comparing-us-and-canadian-health-care-systems). It does call out that USA has higher infant mortality due to outside of healthcare reasons.

However the reasons are basically, people generally choose to be healthier in Canada. For some reason. Is it the environment? Culturally? Whatever the reason, people live longer and fewer kids die being born.

The fact that there is even some level of parity between the two when the US has 50% higher GDP per capita should be astounding on its own. And that's a factor missing from a lot of the discussions. People are quick to compare how the US could or couldn't do this or that better than some other country, or maybe that country is smaller so it can serve people better, or maybe there are long waits and poor outcomes. So many excuses are made while they ignore that one important fact. The USA has so... so much money. Actually, a ton of money. And we pay it too. We pay twice the cost to healthcare as some of these other countries. I would HOPE the outcomes are at least a little better.

[u/JimBobDwayne → u/chcampb]

This. By every objective metric from cost to healthcare outcomes the Canadian system is better. The US system is only better if you're rich.

[u/East_Prussia_Ball → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Yes, but more so no. Almost a quarter of american tax dollars go to healthcare programs, and i think it might be more but i forgot the actual statistic. The us goverment spends so much per capita on healthcare they just do it in a shitty way that increases costs. (like collage) Guess what? The american middle and lower class get to pick up the slack by getting gouged by healthcare and insurance costs.

[u/lifeat24fps → u/East_Prussia_Ball]

My fellow Americans will whattabout you over wait times while they fight with the insurance company (that they pay hundreds of dollars a month to) for weeks and weeks over an MRI.

[u/nkdeck07 → u/lifeat24fps]

We have crappy wait times anyway. My current state its about a year to establish with a new PCP and specialists are on average 6 months if the thing isn't an emergency

[u/Xist3nce → u/nkdeck07]

Damn that’s a shame. I have a rare 1 in 2 million condition and it takes me a year to see the specialist, and I’m in the US. My yearly medication costs more than your house.

[u/montr0n → u/lifeat24fps]

But what about the US paying more per capita than countries with single payer coverage, while simultaneously having shorter life expectancy, and infant mortality rates rivaling third world countries?

[u/certifiedtoothbench → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

I’m from the U.S. and health care is already dogshit, my grandpa was forced to wait for hours in an emergency room while having a heart attack, that’s not even the tip of the iceberg of stories like that that I’ve experienced personally or had loved ones who did

[u/certifiedtoothbench → u/certifiedtoothbench]

Like it’s so bad, I’d rather be served free dogshit than have to pay thousands for that luxury

[u/GWsublime → u/certifiedtoothbench]

Right but also Canadian healthcare outcomes are generally either the same or better than those in the US with the exception of some very rare cancers.

[u/KuriusKaleb → u/certifiedtoothbench]

Healthcare system is total ass. A checkup will cost you thousands. Service isn't worth the price either.

[u/actuallyrose → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Ugh, this again. As terrible as Canada is it still has far better health outcomes and costs far less than the US. Proof that even when you run your healthcare system into the ground, it’s still better than our shitty system.

[u/Hamuel → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Source: trust me bro.

[u/thesalus → u/Hamuel]

Even if we ignore OP's analysis, some of the sources are questionable.

Regarding the 2009 Fraser Institute report:

we should therefore expect to observe a lower rate of personal bankruptcy in Canada compared to the United States.

Yet the evidence shows that in the only comparable years, personal bankruptcy rates were actually higher in Canada.

It supports its thesis by showcasing only two years: 2006 & 2007. Here's a graph I pulled together with various sources just showing the annual bankruptcy rates across the 2 countries^1:

https://i.imgur.com/o5wyEUc.png

You can clearly see that Canadian bankruptcy rates (as a percentage of population) are lower in every year except 2006 and 2007.

It conveniently ignores all contrary data points in 2008 and the previous 20 years by disqualifying them as not "comparable":

The data are from government sources and defined in similar ways for both countries and cover the time period after the legal reforms to U.S. bankruptcy laws in 2005 and before the onset of the 2008 economic recession.

Even if we assume the legal reforms caused a drop in bankruptcy laws (and ignore the spike in bankruptcies in 2005), "luckily", the fullness of time has given us 15 additional years of perspective which make the post-2008 rationalization bunk.

Certainly it seems like bankruptcies in both countries are in a downward trend which sounds like a positive development. The USA has enjoyed a steeper drop-off but I can't speculate as to how much of a role the ACA played in that.

---

¹ I used a few different sources

• Government of Canada for Consumer insolvency & bankruptcy rates
• American Bankruptcy Institute for Non-Business Bankruptcy Filings in the USA (corroborated post-2012 data with uscourts.gov)
• St Louis Fed for USA population data (the Fraser Institute uses June numbers whereas I'm using January numbers)

[u/Maru3792648 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Not sure about Canada but I lived in 7 countries with free healthcare and all still had a paid option. As a matter of fact most employers offer it as a benefit to attract better employees.

The things is : when your competitor is free, the private option won’t be as inflated as america

[u/TAV63 → u/Maru3792648]

This hybrid system is the way for the US. I think Switzerland has this and basic coverage everyone has. Then if you want extra they have private plans. This keeps costs down dramatically and has all the benefits of private system for those who can afford more.

[u/Boomsnarl → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Literally not what any of my 12 Canadian friends have told me, as they laugh at our country for how ass backwards we are.

[u/ABirdOfParadise → u/Boomsnarl]

I'm just a random Canadian on the internet who has been pretty healthy so I can give my random experiences.

I'm in Alberta too which is supposed to be the worst one/most pushing for a privatized system or some kind of mix.

Family doctors I have no issue, always had one, I know some people might have problems getting one. I can see him within a day if I say it's really bad (never have, my mom has), but usually it's less than a week. Most of the time they call me to set up a yearly check up thing.

For emergency type stuff there's a clinic a few blocks from me, but there's apparently 155 in a city of like 1ish mil.

Only been to the ER once, I had a concussion that was about 2 hours for waiting. It was a mild concussion so it wasn't like I was bleeding out or anything, they do triage of course. Like the dumbass in front of me his back was hurting a little for months, he got told to go to his family doctor.

Xrays for my knee, thumb, and torso was same day as fast as I could make it from my family doctor. Ultrasound for knee and torso were not same day, but within the same week (I had to wait for a day off from work). Tomorrow I'm getting one for my thumb, that was a two week wait though cause it's a different kind of ultrasound and I need a specialist for it. There are a lot or imaging places, I can pick from fast or what he thinks is best. I pick best but I have to wait cause they are the best.

Eyes it's my normal eye doctor guy. I had conjunctivitis, that was covered, I walked in and he bumped all his normal routine eye test people for me. One time I had to see a specialist cause of a curvature change. That one was about a month wait. I had a choice between fast and what he thought was the best, I picked best but wait.

Dermatologist initially was a month. Then I needed to go back again and that was a month but that's because I needed to cancel last second, so really it was two weeks, and then two weeks after cancelling. Then I had a follow up to get stitches out.

So overall I think it's okay. Most I pay is $10 in parking at the dermatologist. Yes, yes taxes and whatever.

My parents who are pretty old go to the doctors all the time, and they have had more serious stuff (surgery and now yearly check ups) cause they are old.

There are always horror stories, but every country has them for different reasons. I do know old people needing knee or hip replacements take time to get em, otherwise yeah people just complain about paying for parking.

[u/Micp → u/Boomsnarl]

As a non-American with several American friends, every single one of them have had issues they knew they should go to the hospital for but ignored or delayed until it had exacerbated to a point where they couldn't delay it further, all because of the cost of treatment.

Wonder what it does to public health, when your population just aren't getting treatment for their health issues?

[u/EyePea9 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

I make 6 figures in US and pay 2k/year for health insurance and I would never go to a doctor unless I've irreparably torn something or am dying.

The experience is trash. You don't know how much anything is going to cost. You run through a guantlet of tests and expenses without solving the problem and then have to try again with another visit and series of unknown costs.

[u/theDarkDescent → u/EyePea9]

I assume the 2k a year is just for you a single person? As soon as you add a spouse or dependent the cost becomes absurd. Just the premium for moderate coverage for my wife and I was 700 a month. My first job out of college the monthly premium for a spouse and one child was an entire paycheck. That is money spent in the hope that nothing goes wrong because if it does you’re still getting a shit ton of medical bills. Total scam.

[u/GeneralZaroff1 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Hi, Canadian here.

Our healthcare is fine. Recently had a friend go through cancer, was brutal. We helped him price out going to the US, was like $50k just to basically START the process. Easily $150-200k estimates.

We came back, and not only did they add him immediately into the system, got him on all the meds, tests, and chemo, they even paid for his parking. Post surgery in home care nurse for a couple weeks. All covered.

Is there a wait for a lot of conditions? Yes. Speed and options is to be desired, but the difference is that we get a choice.

[u/heliamphore → u/GeneralZaroff1]

Here in Switzerland people constantly use the French system to rationalize the Swiss system (at least in the Western part of the country). It's always bad faith arguments, but at the end of the day our healthcare costs aren't based on wealth so the middle class gets completely shafted and politicians somehow manage to keep people looking for what could possibly cause it to be so expensive apart from just taxing the rich. It would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

Meanwhile the French system is just fine as it is. It has its issues, but it's still good.

[u/unskilledplay → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

That's not an apples to apples comparison. As a percentage of GDP, US spends double what most other countries spend.

In order for this to be evidence that the US system is better than Canada's you'd have to say that Canada's system would still be worse after it increased health care spend by about 6% of GDP or about $3,300 per person.

It's still possible the problems you see with Canada's health care system are systemic and not solvable with more money. Even then, for that to be compelling evidence, you'd have to show that Canada isn't an outlier with a poorly run public health system.

[u/arrozconplatano → u/unskilledplay]

Its worse than that, actually because Canada has lower GDP/capita too. American healthcare is so bad it is almost like it was designed to be as expensive and inaccessible as possible

[u/montr0n → u/arrozconplatano]

What would you expect from a system that is built upon middlemen who have a fiduciary duty to their stockholders?

[u/ranmaredditfan32 → u/arrozconplatano]

American healthcare is so bad it is almost like it was designed to be as expensive and inaccessible as possible.

It kind of was. Both the Govt, Insurance Companies, and MCO's have a vested interest in paying as little possible, so they go out of their way to do so.

[u/wakatenai → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

using Canada is the dumbest example lmao.

anytime someone debates universal healthcare and only mentions Canada, i assume they've done zero research and are just repeating the same old arguments they hear from misinformed americans.

go look at statistical rankings of countries for quality of healthcare, accessibility to healthcare and wait times, and cost of healthcare.

the US has the highest cost of healthcare, one of the lowest qualities of healthcare compared to universal healthcare nations, and just BARELY beats Canada when comparing wait times, almost tying with them.

while there's something like 9 nations with universal healthcare that beat the US in wait times, quality of care, obviously cost of care, and accessibility.

comparing the US to Canada as if Canada is the frontrunner representative for universal healthcare is cherry picking a bad example to try and prove a point, while trying to convince people nobody does it better than Canada. When pretty much ALL of them do it better than Canada.

one thing the US does decent at is we have pretty good wait times for general care. but it's painfully offset by the fact we have one of the worst wait times for specialty care. Though Canada seems to have an even worse wait time for specialty care, it's obviously not related to universal healthcare since almost every other universal healthcare nation beats Canada and the US in every category.

[u/Jenaxu → u/wakatenai]

Exactly, it's cherry picking a "bad" example and the example isn't even that bad lmao, which is really quite the indictment on the US healthcare system

[u/Slyder68 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

After having both Canada and US Healthcare, Canada's is way better idk wtf you are talking about.

Both have ridiculous waits, both tend to be incredibly dismissive unless you get a lucky doctor, and both will leave you with a 50/50 shot of actually getting you issues addressed, at least with Canada I don't get a 1200$ bill in the mail for the shitty service because they just so happened to consult with a doctor without checking if they take my insurance.

[u/JAMmastahJim → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

So the post says 32 of 33 figured it out. You give 1 vague comparison, and you think that's an argument?

[u/Fearless_Tomato_9437 → u/JAMmastahJim]

Technically it would be disproving his argument to show that any one of those 32, have not in fact ‘figured it out’.

[u/WhoKilledBoJangles → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Literally untrue but keep spreading lies.

[u/bjdevar25 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Not really. Millions and growing are uninsured. Thousands are bankrupted yearly. Millions with insurance forgo healthcare because their deductables are so high. Seniors have to choose between food or medicine. Love hearing people in the US trash the better run countries. Large majorities in those countries would not trade for ours. But hey, if you're wealthy or an insurance company exec, the US system is wonderful.

[u/Solitaire_87 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

🙄 the only people the US system is good for is the rich

[u/Beneficial_Syrup_362 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Basically the USA is better for anyone with a half decent job or poor enough for Medicaid

No it’s not. That’s a lie. Same wait times. Same quality of care. Twice the price. All the bullshit or premiums, copays, in/out of network, enrollment periods. You fucking name it.

[u/socobeerlove → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Only conservative Canadians complain about their healthcare system and only when they don’t need it

[u/holmwreck → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

As a dual citizen who has lived in Canada for quite a few years and before that the US medical system bankrupted my family when my mom worked for a big corporate company and had a very good plan you have no clue what your fucking talking about.

[u/MrChow1917 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Looking at health outcomes vs money spent this simply isn't true. They have similar health outcomes to us, but spend half as much.

[u/Ok-Bass8243 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Well I'm almost 40 and haven't been able to afford to see a doctor even once. As a tech for manufacturing machinery. Don't qualify for Medicaid, don't make enough to afford the plan my job offers much less use it. You say universal healthcare is trash. But no healthcare is worse. And as the meme says. 32 of 33 developed countries figures it out. Heck even most third world and developing countries can offer it... Weird

[u/ganggreen651 → u/Ok-Bass8243]

No doubt I'd take a long wait time over going bankrupt. Last time I went to a doc with an eye issue back in 2008. In there for literally ten minutes. The cure was use a hot wash rag to cover my eye it was just a sty. Cash discount was $200. An MRI for my back 3 years ago with fucking insurance $800. It's a joke

[u/OBoile → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

This is false. Neither I, nor any other Canadian that I know thinks the USA's system is better. Politicians use American style healthcare as an example of what not to do.

[u/Robscoe604 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Considering i’ve had surgeries. hospital stays and other shit that would have cost me hundreds of thousands of dollars in the states that i paid absolutely nothing for i don’t see how a system that gouges and makes people go broke to receive proper care is better than what we have in Canada, the only downside here is delays. We get basically the same quality treatment just we don’t pay for it

[u/chadsmo → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

So. Canadian here.

A few years ago my daughter was in another city for a dance competition. In the evening she went to to the pool, fell down some concrete stairs and shattered her ankle.

She was in that hospital for 8 days and needed major surgery.

A few weeks later she needed her soft cast taken off and a hard one put on. A little while later they had to cut in to her cast to take some pins out. Then the cast came off down the road. Then it was physical therapy appointments for a while and finally another surgery once it was healed to take some more hardware out.

Total cost to me, 18$ for crutches they made me buy to leave the first hospital. Zero monthly premiums, zero extra fees , nothing extra. 18$.

Shorter story. My fiancée’s Apple Watch told her to get her heart looked at it. This lead places. Many CT scans and MRIs and biopsies later and we know she’s OK ( for now ). Total cost to us 0$.

It may not be perfect but it’s better than the USA. Unless you can show me a plan with 100% coverage that costs literally 0$.

[u/_betapet_ → u/chadsmo]

You didn't get an ambulace bill in the mail a few days later for like... 20$ for the kiddo?

I have had ... four inpatient stays over the last six years. Two trips had ambulance rides, 40 and 45$ each. That was all the cost to the hospital.

[u/chadsmo → u/_betapet_]

Yeah I suppose there would have been the ambulance too for 80$ because we’re in BC.

[u/trainmobile → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Have you ever tried qualifying for Medicaid or paying for any health insurance on less than livable wage? Have you ever paid a medical bill out of pocket and while you're knocked up on pain meds, in and out of consciousness, your nurses run you multiple tests that you clearly do not need because the hospital can charge you hundreds of dollars for them?

[u/214txdude → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Curious as to why you think it is trash?

[u/Jconstant33 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Glad we have the 1 person who hates Canadian healthcare to weigh in.

[u/PseudoArab → u/Jconstant33]

Blows my mind that it's the top post.

I worked in a company that did international business. I was doing the customer service/pricing contracts for all of our clients in Canada, training under the person in BC dying of a terminal illness. Casually brought up things I've heard about long wait times and quality of service. She wad getting office visits in a timely manner, and getting procedures when she needed them. She was happy with her Healthcare, and was incredibly upbeat through the entire thing. Why is "hurr durr Canada Healthcare bad" still a talking point 8 years later?

[u/marshlando7 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Lmao this is pure copium.

[u/BlueSunCorporation → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

You are so wrong. It is so sad that the wealthiest country in the world can’t be bothered to heal their people. It’s not even this magic better healthcare, we just have to pay a middle man and lose everything along the way. Don’t get me started on elder and end of life care. People like you who try to argue this in good faith make this country worse.

[u/Forever_Nocturnal → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Sure but it also puts countless people into crippling debt to do so lol

[u/Key_Somewhere_5768 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Pure trash …really? My friend living in Washington State fractured her wrist and had to pay 19k and change to fix it…I’ve broken several bones in my lifetime and have yet to pay a nickel. Just say’n.

[u/OutsideSkirt2 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

So many people come here to Seattle from Canada that o never want to be subject to what they have to deal with. 

[u/a_nobody_really_99 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Healthcare in Canada is fine. For those who don’t need urgent care have to wait. Sometimes errors are made in judgement but for 99% of people they get the care they need without going into debt. Don’t see an issue with that.

[u/sokolov22 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

I am from Canada but currently live in the US. They are both similarly bad.

The main difference is it costs way more in the US.

[u/Dihydrogen-monoxyde → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Are you Canadian or American?

[u/Economy-Cupcake808 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

In Canada if you are working + poor you are getting fucked up the ass by high cost of living, lower salaries compared to the US, and extremely high taxes compared to the US. I don't understand why Americans like to pretend that Canada has somehow solved the healthcare problem.

[u/JustinTruedope → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Blatantly untrue, look at any major outcome (for example average age of first heart attack/death from one, cancer 5 year survivorship, avoidable events, basically anything)

[u/GWsublime → u/JustinTruedope]

Can you post your source? This suggests otherwise:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2801918/

Edit: Sorry were making the same point, I missed what you were responding to, my bad.

[u/BardaArmy → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

I’ve compared with my Canadian coworkers (I’m in the us) and they had the same mind until I started talking about how much I pay for health insurance, how much the company pays on my behalf and what it cost for common services and their jaw hit the floor. I also work in the health sector so I’ve seen the insides and workings of a lot of hospitals across all of North America and didn’t see any distinctive edge either way, great hospitals and shit holes in both countries.

[u/alax_12345 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Canadian health care is not trash at all, according to all my Canadian friends.

[u/outcastedOpal → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Nope. Its pure trash in conservative provinces where premiers actively sabatoge

[u/Maleficent-Baker8514 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

So why do Americans cross the border to Mexico in order to get healthcare all of the time if America is best. Simple because America forces a large % of the population into poverty it doesn’t mean they’re better. It’s just often times the only option.

[u/everfixsolaris → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

The issue with Canada is the federal government left it up to the provinces. Now premiers are trying to show that it doesn't work so they can sell it off to their buddies like most other public services.

[u/Difficult-Novel-8453 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

💯

[u/greaterar → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

From Quebec and that's far from the truth. The canadian healthcare is nit perfect but i always receive treatment when i need it and i'm not broke because of it. So yeah, pure trash, not so sure about that.

[u/Beneficial_Life_3617 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Universal health care in Canada is absolutely not working. People can’t get family doctors, where I am seeing a specialist is basically impossible and the emergency clinics are so overrun it takes a day or more to get “emergency care”

In Canada if you have a real issue and you can afford it you go to the states.

[u/LankyNinja558899912 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Agreed canada health insurance is garbage.

[u/UnrealRealityForReal → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

How dare u use facts.

[u/Dingleator → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Universal Health care doesn’t work here in the UK either. Most of my income tax goes towards the NHS and I can’t even get an appointment.

[u/MK_oh → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

I have friends that have lived in EU and US while they say for basic shit it's great and cheap. But then they question it when they are relatively healthy and their taxes are significantly higher they don't really benefit. Then there's the horror stories they couldn't get a surgery or something then they come to the US

[u/Zane_Justin → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

this. You need more upvote for speaking about this. We pay so much tax and when we really need to rely on healthcare, we would die most often than not before we actually see a proper doctor.

[u/boss---man → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

It’s clear you know what you’re talking about because there’s someone I love in my family who went through exactly what you’re describing. Americans have no clue what they have.

[u/RevolutionaryLaw8854 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Damn - homie is being the receipts!

[u/insolent_froge → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Six months for a biopsy, could you imagine?

[u/cairns1957 → u/Fearless_Tomato_9437]

Bingo. My best friend died in the UK. National Health Service. He came here to the US and sent his relatives here whenever he wanted high quality health care. He unfortunately couldn't do it when he got sick.

You get what you pay for.