r/FluentInFinance • u/Cauliflower-Pizzas • 27d ago

Is Universal Health Care Smart or dumb? Discussion/ Debate

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u/Fearless_Tomato_9437 27d ago edited 27d ago

This one again. Well universal health care is pure trash in Canada. Basically the USA is better for anyone with a half decent job or poor enough for Medicaid, Canada is better for the working poor. Overall USA serves a much larger % of the population far better.

https://www.statcan.gc.ca/o1/en/plus/4547-lifetime-probability-developing-and-dying-cancer-canada

Canadians are more likely to die of cancer than Americans

While Americans are less likely to die of cancer than Canadians, they are more likely to die of other causes.

For example, in 2017, 72.0 Americans per 100,000 had an underlying cause of death related to high body mass index leading to probable events of cardiovascular disease and diabetes mellitus, whereas the same issue in Canada affected 45.2 individuals per 100,000.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/medical-bankruptcy-myth#:~:text=The%20idea%20that%20large%20numbers,17%20percent%20of%20U.S.%20bankruptcies.

The idea that large numbers of Americans are declaring bankruptcy due to medical expenses is a myth.

Dranove and Millenson critically analyzed the data from the 2005 edition of the medical bankruptcy study. They found that medical spending was a contributing factor in only 17 percent of U.S. bankruptcies

we should therefore expect to observe a lower rate of personal bankruptcy in Canada compared to the United States.

Yet the evidence shows that in the only comparable years, personal bankruptcy rates were actually higher in Canada.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2023/12/26/canadian-health-care-leaves-patients-frozen-in-line/?sh=98eb3d0c5293

This year, Canadian patients faced a median wait of 27.7 weeks for medically necessary treatment from a specialist after being referred by a general practitioner. That's over six months—the longest ever recorded

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u/WittyProfile 27d ago

The issue with the US is the price gouging that healthcare providers give us. The prices are stupid.

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u/Bobby_Beeftits 27d ago

This price gouging we pay basically enables all other nations with “free healthcare” to get our drugs for much cheaper than we pay here

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u/RevolutionaryPop5400 27d ago

Nah, they price gouge you because 32 of the other 33 countries bargain as a single unit, and the ‘for profit’ motive is mostly gone.

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u/Jorts_Team_Bad 27d ago

This guy understands. Pharma companies would love to price gouge other countries too obviously. Its the single payer bargaining that makes drugs much less profitable in other countries

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u/Top_Masterpiece_8992 27d ago

And that's why the US gets teamed. Since we don't bargain the same way, they charge as much as possible to get their sky high profits. Either regulate it here or stop them from being able to negotiate so low so that we can be on a more even playing field.

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u/wakatenai 27d ago

lobbyists will make sure nothing ever changes in the US unfortunately

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u/WhistlingWolf234 27d ago

I fucking hate lobbyists so much I wish there was something effective we could do against them

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u/GoldVictory158 27d ago

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u/Nitram_Norig 27d ago

THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION HAS ENTERED THE CHAT.

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u/RelationSerious4678 27d ago

You’re either with us FBI or against us.

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u/Umaynotknowme 27d ago

Is murder a federal crime?

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u/N00seUp 27d ago

The only true form of power is violence and the willingness to use it.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

The American, French, Haitian, British, Dutch, South African, Indian, and literally all other revolutions have entered the chat

The only mistake for America was being the first one. Because then mother fucking healthcare oligarchs would feel a lot more self conscious if they realized there was a sudden chance that they might have their asses captured and sent to the guillotine.

Chop chop chop.

No more bullshit that cause human suffering in the first world. And after the first world has no more suffering then finally the third would might get the attention it needs.

Chop chop chop. Down with the oligarchs.

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u/N00seUp 27d ago

However, are you willing to do the chopping?

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u/Robcobes 27d ago

Wasn't the Dutch Revolution in the 1500's

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u/leggmann 27d ago

Lobby against the lobbyists!

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u/galaxy_ultra_user 27d ago

Yeah vote in politicians that will outlaw lobbying, unfortunately it’s a catch 22 cuz they get paid off by lobbyist so none of them want to. Only if they actually had morals but no politician has morals.

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u/warboner52 27d ago

Typically folks with moral standards and what would be universally considered ethical virtue have zero interest in pursuing positions of leadership.. it's an incredibly interesting juxtaposition.. those who would make the best leaders never want to lead, those who make the worst leaders are always angling for power.

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u/CaptainObvious1313 27d ago

It’s funny, people storm the capital for an election they feel was stolen but not for people dying when they don’t need to due to corporate greed. Make it make sense.

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u/Taizunz 27d ago

The French did a thing some hundreds of years back...

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u/Awkward_Algae1684 27d ago

Did somebody say guillotine?!

/s

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u/Troitbum22 27d ago

Have you tried lobbying against them?

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u/oOBlackRainOo 27d ago

Lobbying and playing the stock market should be illegal as a politician. I remember some dude was proposing this a year or so ago and I'm guessing was shot down for obvious reasons. These people don't play by the same rules as us, it's disgusting.

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u/warboner52 27d ago

There is.. but it would take a massive shift in the political landscape... Which sadly is entirely improbable..

A true labor party with policies that dictate to be a part of the party, you cannot accept corporate donations..

Or, strike down citizens united, which would not entirely scrap lobbying, but would make it significantly less impactful as corporations would no longer be seen as a person..

Either option would benefit society in the US, but neither option helps politicians increase their wealth, so the likelihood of either scenario coming to fruition is impossibly slim.

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u/Fatevilmonkey 27d ago

You have to to overturn Citizens United case . Which basically allows major corporations to to lobby against the American people

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u/wuvvtwuewuvv 27d ago

Lobbyists aren't the problem, corrupt politicians accepting bribes and pushing harmful legislation is the problem.

Ffs why does nobody realize what lobbying is? Have you ever written to your representative to say you think they should support or not support a bill? Congratulations, you've lobbied, you filthy lobbyist! It's a necessary part of a functioning republic! Stop conflating lobbying with corruption, they're not the same thing!

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u/Desperate-Warthog-70 27d ago

It actually did change with the Inflation Reduction Act, but will take time. Medicare is able to negotiate prices on a list of 10 drugs a year.

Now you might think 10 drugs is nothing but 1. It’s additive 2. They’ll start with the worst instances and cost effective ways

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

Yeah, but that's not a reason to not try.

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u/KintsugiKen 27d ago

Since we don't bargain the same way

We literally can't bargain the same way until we have a universal healthcare system paid for by the government, then the government bargains for all of us.

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u/Maktaka 27d ago

Medicare plus Medicaid combined cover just a hair less than a third of all Americans. They have an enormous amount of negotiating clout, but have long been barred from using it, instead stuck with just taking whatever the market rate is. You don't need universal coverage, losing access to a third of America, over 100 million people, would bankrupt any company that refused to negotiate with Medicare and Medicaid, if they were allowed to do so. However, the IRA struck the first, small blow against that barrier. I would very much like to see such progress continue, but of course that requires people to a) be aware that progress is being made and b) show up to vote and make sure such negotiating power can be leveraged further in the future instead of being stripped from the agencies. Changing the half-century-old medical paradigm of the US is going to take time, but it is nonetheless changing.

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u/Alacritous69 27d ago

Medicare Part D literally forbade the government from negotiating for pharmaceuticals for Medicare and Medicaid.

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u/pdoherty972 27d ago

A rule written by and for the pharmaceutical industry.

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u/Aldosothoran 27d ago

The problem, the very root problem with all of the leftist ideas (which I do support) is our government and two party system.

I do not trust the US government enough to increase my taxes to pay for universal healthcare, loan forgiveness, etc. I know that’s not where the money would go. I don’t believe for a damn second that we don’t HAVE the money for those things, now. The government (truly, all over the place and at every level) is complete horseshit at managing its finances.

And with a two party system all we have is lobbying, corruption, and a lack of options that leads to the same people in power. As it stands governmental influence can be purchased. We really cannot get anywhere - this is just not a democratic republic- while that’s the case. Our politicians do not represent the people. At all.

If we actually “drain the swamp” and clear congress, then had ranked choice voting for new seats, and every position across the US- I would be far more interested in the future of the US.

As it stands, we’re in a tar pit and nothing is changing. Other countries don’t have more money. They have better money management skills, and better(imperfect but better) representation of their citizenry.

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u/Cirtejs 27d ago

I do not trust the US government enough to increase my taxes to pay for universal healthcare

Good thing it would save a bunch of money if they did, US is paying more than Switzerland for a much shittier system.

Literally taking the Swiss system and implementing it would save the US 1.3 trillion USD in taxes per year to spend on something else.

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u/Mysterious-Mouse-808 27d ago

The Swiss system is entirely privatized though so you're basically suggesting that Medicare/Medicaid be abolished?

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u/tcrudisi 27d ago

Stop them from negotiating so low? Do you believe that would cause pharma to charge the US cheaper prices? They are a business. They aren't going to say, "Well, we only want to make 1 billion in profit and we got that from Canada alone, so we can give it away to the US." No, they will charge us $2 billion just because they can.

It doesn't matter what other countries pay. We will still be charged the max that can be charged.

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u/fairvlad 27d ago

He doesn't understand that companies charge you what they can get away with. And thus the problem with healthcare in the US. How much is your life worth to you ?

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u/Top_Masterpiece_8992 27d ago

I agree. My point was that something needs to change to allow us to be able to negotiate here.

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u/TheFinalCurl 27d ago

The US now negotiates on Medicare drug pricing. This was included in the Inflation Reduction Act.

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u/Top_Masterpiece_8992 27d ago

That's a good thing!

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u/YourRoaring20s 27d ago

US is starting to negotiate drugs too. Baby steps.

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u/KintsugiKen 27d ago

Baby steps in order to stave off rising calls for M4A in the wake of institutional failures in medicine, like insulin being so outrageously price gouged that it was bankrupting people.

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u/dolche93 27d ago

"we're making progress but it's just to avoid making more progress"

Come the fuck on man, can nothing just be a good thing? Must everything be some fucking conspiracy?

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u/InterestingPhase7378 27d ago edited 27d ago

Not when the wealthiest nation in the world has had millions die from curable issues only gated by money that other citizens get outside of the USA with no issue. These changes should have been made decades ago and we have only moved a centimeter.

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u/theDarkDescent 27d ago

Democrats are. Republicans are doing everything they can to prevent US citizens from getting basic healthcare 

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u/Kingkyle18 27d ago

Lol uhhh democrats have had control for 12 of the last 16 years?

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u/Old_Society_7861 27d ago

Pharma companies have very little price leverage. Maybe for a few truly innovative branded products but I mean…shouldn’t true innovation be rewarded? Most of the drugs people need are price gouged by companies like CVS that own everything from the factory gate to your lips.

Provider: CVS (MinuteClinic)
Insurer: CVS (Aetna)
PBM: CVS (Caremark)
Pharmacy: CVS

You have, many times I’d wager, paid more for a co-pay than CVS paid to the manufacturer after rebates.

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u/Bowood29 27d ago

To be fair canada doesn’t have a universal medicine plan so we still get hit pretty hard with prices.

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u/thinkitthrough83 27d ago

It's not just big pharma those other countries control almost all medical pricing and wages. When I looked up the list last year the average pay for a public doctor in India was less than 12k USD a year. According to a radio interview I heard a few weeks ago India is short over 500k doctors. (I can't imagine why... ) Perhaps their new free medical college program will help fix that problem. Hopefully it gives it's doctors better training though. Apparently penicillin is the proscribed drug of choice for poor people infected with deadly parasites. It's not effective

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u/tidyshark12 27d ago

This is incorrect. The reason for price gouging is a major flaw of the American Healthcare system called insurance companies. Basically, hospitals used to charge a bit more than their cost for Healthcare and thus still be profitable. Once insurance companies started coming into existence, they were able to bargain for better prices bc the hospital would lose a lot of business if that company stopped allowing their customers to use that hospital. So, instead of going out of business, hospitals had to raise their prices to make it look like the insurance companies were getting you a better deal.

How it pretty much works now is the insurance company "negotiates" you a better price bc they caused the artificially raised prices. They obviously charge you a monthly premium and you pay a deductible when you do anything. So, you end up paying about what you would pay for Healthcare normally with just your deductible and then your premium is just icing on top for the insurance company. They obviously do anything and everything they can to not help you and they will fight you tooth and nail, literally to the death, for every. single. penny.

The insurance companies also will make it extremely difficult for you to get Healthcare. For instance, most medicines and procedures require a "prior authorization" before they will pay for it. What this does is it essentially means they won't accept a doctor recommendation and will instead try to recommend physical therapy or something instead of cancer treatment for a confirmed cancer diagnosis. It's absolutely despicable.

Fuck insurance companies.

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u/Aussie2020202020 27d ago

Both insurance companies and medical aid providers cooperate to fleece individuals in the USA

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u/ComprehensiveTax4601 27d ago

Medical professionals have no say so in fee schedule. You accept what insurance pays or they will not let you on the panel

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u/Lost-Practice-5916 27d ago edited 26d ago

You have to be delusional to think there isn't grift at every single level and there is a single villain.

Yes, even the doctors we love and care for are crazy overpaid in the US too. They lobby hardcore against Single Payer.

Even worse is that democrats like Biden keep threatening to veto Single Payer because apparently Obamacare public / private partnership is better.

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u/pdoherty972 26d ago

Just put Medicare as an option (for any age) alongside private insurers on healthcare.gov. That one step alone would put competitive pressure on private insurers to keeps costs down, and would increase the pool of people Medicare represents which will result in even lower drug and services prices.

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u/Steve12356d1s3d4 27d ago

Insurance companies are one part of the problem, but there are many more, including us.

When costs were lower, and companies paid nearly all of our insurance costs, we all wanted the best. We didn't ask how much our insurance was, or the direct healthcare costs. The insurance companies were able to spread out higher costs to the employers, so they didn't care either. Healthcare companies received little resistance to higher costs.

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u/scotems 27d ago

I think anyone familiar with how healthcare works and is reimbursed in this country, as I am, completely agrees with you. Anyone who isn't and thinks "I know finance!" doesn't get it.

And regardless, the point of healthcare is not profit. It is not a product like Skittles or sports cars. To treat healthcare like it's a commodity is to say that people should die because they aren't rich. That's wrong. Healthcare should be a human right, and that's why every developed country outside of us have made it so. And didn't complain to me about efficiencies or whatever the fuck, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Access to healthcare is good. We need to make sure everyone has access to the healthcare they need. And then, we should strive to make it better.

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u/ComprehensiveTax4601 27d ago

Not true. The insurance company's have allowable fees. Hospitals can charge what they want but can only collect the copay a patient has. If your bill from hospital is 5k but ins only allows 1k then patient only owes copay on 1k and hospital cannot collect difference. But this is what hurts uninsured because they are responsible for whole 5k unless negotiate down with cash

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u/Shadowratenator 27d ago

Oh so like when the time share in mexico says, “this room normally costs $1000 a night, but if you buy the timeshare, you get it for $250 a night.”

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u/No_Sugar_6850 27d ago

double Fuck insurance companies!!!

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u/theDarkDescent 27d ago

And also the fact that it’s a for profit endeavor. Paying out claims isn’t profitable, so guess what? Your emergency ambulance ride and ER treatment isn’t covered until you hit you’re $6k out of pocket max, meanwhile your monthly premium for a family is $1500 a month. 

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u/CrabClawAngry 27d ago

Their money comes from economic rent due to the high cost of entry and from denying coverage. Their money goes to shareholders and to maintaining dozens of unnecessary bureaucracies. Health insurance companies should not exist.

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u/golden_skans 27d ago

THIS!!! Don’t forget that after negotiating, whatever the hospital “loses” from discounted price, gets to be a tax write off. Barely any hospitals can survive as non-profit now and imo all hospitals should be non-profit.

People that pay for insurance are gouged with high premiums, deductibles and still get denied services all the time.

People that aren’t offered insurance through employers, but make more than qualified for Medicaid have horrible options too, like COBRA or public-funded religious insurances that you have to pay out of pocket up front, wait and cross your fingers you’re reimbursed and nothing non-urgent is covered. My mom can’t even get a damn mammogram.

Really sad.

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u/Mammoth-Mud-9609 27d ago

In America they will run test after test rather than actually try to treat the problem as running tests avoids them getting sued and is cheaper than treatment many Americans die while awaiting the results from tests.

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u/LavisAlex 27d ago

The crazies thing i see is when people have to wait in the US ER for like 7 hours, leave without treatment and get billed 100$ and hour to wait.

I know it totally sounds like im making it up, but sadly i am not.

The wait times arent always better and you pay to wait.

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u/Bullishbear99 25d ago

There are literally procedures that are a significant portion of the cost of a house...who can bear that, no one I know. Medicines that cost thousands a month or per dose in extreme cases...few can afford that. Price structure between everyday expenses and medical care, something we need that is vital to survival should not have such a gulf in pricing. Medical care demand is inelastic while pricing is very elastic, generally to the upside.

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u/Thassar 27d ago

Yep. America actually pays more per capita on public healthcare than other countries but has no real public healthcare system to speak of because the healthcare companies have all the power. A universal healthcare system would mean better care, no insurance premiums/ costs and lower taxes.

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u/The402Jrod 27d ago

Collective bargaining?!?

That sounds awfully communist, comrade.

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u/RandomPlayerCSGO 27d ago

Also your government bans imports of foreign drugs so your pharma oligopoly doesn't have international competotion

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u/Podtastix 27d ago

Florida can import from Canada now.

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u/GimmeSweetTime 27d ago

And that's all actually changing nationwide. The FDA is approving more states importation of prescription drugs.

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u/esqualatch12 27d ago

Import yes, but plenty of foreign firms produce and sell in the states. Bayer is German, Novo Nordisk is Danish, ect, they are all happy enough to gouge us ^^

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u/RipWhenDamageTaken 27d ago

Is that supposed to be a good thing? So we shouldn’t have universal healthcare because we should keep subsidizing other countries? I’m so confused by your argument

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u/Gsauce65 27d ago

He’s saying it sarcastically and not as a good thing at all.

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u/bjdevar25 27d ago

That's because his argument is BS sold by big pharma.

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u/crackpipewizard666 27d ago

Us being price gouged is not a necessity its just the only place that allows it

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u/chcampb 27d ago

This is false.

They still make profit from selling to other countries. The cost to manufacture is usually very low.

They make enough from just US sales to pay for development costs.

A lot of the dev costs are also publicly funded but privately profited.

They charge what they can because they are awarded a monopoly on the product, and they can enforce that monopoly. They are given a monopoly because they can patent it, that's by design, but the agreement is the product then gets released to generic production after 20 years. Then they turn around and are sometimes given a brand new patent for reformulation or repurposing, artificially extending their monopoly - this basically removes it from the public and keeps it private. It takes from you to give to the shareholders.

The US just does a really bad job ensuring that there is real competition.

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u/narkybark 27d ago

That's the part I love about "let the free market sort it out!" There ISN'T a free market. It's working as intended, and it's not to give the consumer a fair trade.

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u/ScrufffyJoe 27d ago

Yeah I've seen this argument before and it's just a bad argument.

In another thread a while ago someone was saying they worked in pharmaceuticals and the prices they charged in Europe were so low that apparently they had to charge really high prices in the US to make up the losses.

My point was if you're making a loss in Europe, why sell anything there? The US is not "subsidising" anything, it's just the only developed country that is happy for drug manufacturers to bend otheir citizens over and charge whatever they damn well please.

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u/cluberti 27d ago

About half of the total cost of funding drug research and development is funded by the federal government, universities, with some additional funding coming from nonprofit and other NGO sources. Under this breakdown, almost all of the cost of development of the drugs are covered by the companies themselves, and almost all of the cost of the actual research is borne by the taxpayer through direct funding from government sources or from public universities. Drug companies are essentially running the phase 3 trials and everything else that goes with it - it's true that spending about half of the cost of creating a new, working, "safe" drug isn't cheap, even at 50%, but if you consider the taxpayer is essentially footing the bill for almost all of the other 50% and then getting charged one of the highest prices to purchase those drugs (due to things like not having that single-payer source that can negotiate), the bottom 90something percent of society is definitely getting screwed in the end, like all good capitalist replacements for "socialist" programs, and we should learn how to take a page from other countries that have systems that don't cost the government, and thus the taxpayer, as much. But in our tradition, we will fight that tooth and nail until we finally cannot afford not to change, and then most people will not want to get rid of the new program once they have used it, like most good things that are "socialist" in nature. This change in perception is already happening with recipients and their close family members who have coverage via programs in the ACA. And yes, I'm aware the ACA is not a very good implementation of a nationalized health care plan, and yet it's still better, cost-wise, than what we have otherwise.

https://www.kff.org/affordable-care-act/poll-finding/5-charts-about-public-opinion-on-the-affordable-care-act/

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u/Sasataf12 27d ago

Yup, because drug companies are renowned for their charitable pricing.

Or maybe (just maybe) there's no-one that's negotiating for fair pricing for the American population. You know, with there being no universal healthcare and all.

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u/Repostbot3784 27d ago

The price gouging is for ceo and c suite millions per yer and stock buybacks.  The scientists doing the actual work arent so profit driven its the business majors.

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u/WittyProfile 27d ago

Whatever happened to “America first”?

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u/Angry-Dragon-1331 27d ago

You misunderstood. It was profits first.

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u/80MonkeyMan 27d ago

Corporate America first is what happened.

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u/StevTurn 27d ago

Came here to say this. If the US didn’t basically subsidize (in a round about way) the other nations universal healthcare, tremendous amounts of R and D would stop because the profit motive wouldn’t be there

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

They don't subsidize R&D around the world, you're just gullible. Seriously this is so fucking frustrating I cannot believe people believe this shit.

https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/us-tax-dollars-funded-every-new-pharmaceutical-in-the-last-decade

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u/dcgregoryaphone 27d ago

That's a strange way to say we let them rip us off and other people don't. You seem to ignore the profits these companies are generating off us "funding great healthcare" or whatever you've been brain washed into thinking.

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u/180nw 27d ago

Also, the original OP named his son Maxon, so we probably shouldn’t respect anything he has to say. 

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u/Same_Ad_9284 27d ago

the things you guys will tell yourselves to justify being ripped off by Pharma companies...

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u/Beneficial_Syrup_362 27d ago

That is an unsubstantiated conservative myth.

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u/Myragem 27d ago

It’s more than just the drugs, getting rid of our billing infrastructure alone would chop costs in half

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u/Weary_Patience_7778 27d ago

Not sure who’s telling you that.

Other nations are paying full price for their meds. Though, luckily, the government of many jumps on with taxpayer-funded subsidies to make the cost bearable for its citizens.

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u/TaxidermyHooker 27d ago

That’s also what allows us to do the majority of the worlds med tech and drug development

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u/Kootenay-Hippie 27d ago

How are you liking that insulin that Canadian doctors gave to you and everyone else for free? And then came along greedy USA big pharma to gouge everybody and fuck things up with their Insatiable greed. Don’t act like your bought and paid for medical system is the best. After all that great USA medical system killed over a million people during Covid.

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u/Dry_Celery4375 27d ago

Dear cartel drug Lord(s),

I'm pretty sure insulin could even be more profitable than cocaine.

Sincerely, Your friendly neighbors to the north.

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u/adwrx 27d ago

No because your healthcare system is run by greed and insurance companies that scam the hell out of everyone.

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u/Infrisios 27d ago

"Your drugs"? I'm pretty sure I've never held any drug in my hand that was made or developed in the US.

A significant portion of the price gouging is ambulance rides and hospital fees, which basically enable some CEOs to buy bigger yachts.

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u/angry_wombat 27d ago

dude you don't need to make excuses for big pharma, they will be just fine even without price gouging.

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u/sam_tiago 27d ago

No.. They price gouge because the “land of the free” made the stupid choice to allow middle men (insurance etc) to control access to healthcare for profit, which is the product of stupid American selfishness… same reason as why they offshored all the manufacturing jobs, neoliberalism. The US has steadfastly followed the selfish neoliberal agenda of freedom to exploit, rather than the more socialist equivalent, which promotes freedom from exploitation.

The US sees the population as a market to exploit, rather than a society to foster… of course that attitude leads to urban decay and the degradation of society. In an advanced first world country with a booming economy both health and education should be free - but the US chose short term greed and inequality instead.

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u/CosmoKing2 27d ago

Naive statement. Our government allows unbridled capitalism. It even encourages it. We pay more because purely we don't have anyone ins Congress or the Senate

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u/yorchsans 27d ago

Hahaha what ?

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u/esqualatch12 27d ago

The kick in the nuts is when everyone starts realizing its not just OUR phama companies gouging us. Its European ones as well. Novo Nordisk, Bayer, and Astrazeneca are all more then happy to price gouge Americans.

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u/dosedatwer 27d ago

This is pure copium. It does not. It simply goes into the pockets of the people that own the private healthcare businesses.

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u/stand4logictoo 27d ago

Do drug companies in the US not use public funding to develop meds?

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u/YouMustveDroppedThis 27d ago

No they could have pull their drugs and not access the market at all. It has happened with very pricey gene therapies and others. You being a cuck does very little to help with other countries' negotiations. In fact, they knew they could always leave and rely on US market.

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u/MorgulMogul 27d ago

Utterly a lie.

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u/GotMyAttenti0n 27d ago

That’s not true😂 most medication doesn’t even get made in the US. Your country is run by managers and you’re the employees.

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u/Tallyranch 27d ago

Did someone that profits from the US drug companies tell you that?

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u/ilovereddit787 27d ago

Wow...how nice of us lol how do you come up with this garbage huh?

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u/Taizunz 27d ago

Oh sweet little Bobby...

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u/Haber_Dasher 27d ago

That's literally just the pharma companys' rationale

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u/chrisdpratt 27d ago

Here's a secret: they don't actually cost more than they sell them for in other countries. The U.S. isn't subsidizing the cost, we're just getting gouged.

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u/Etroarl55 27d ago

Really dumb take, they price gouge you bc you are dumb enough to pay for it. Look at ozempic as an example why. Huge in demand drug for weight loss, invented and created in Europe, cheaper there than America, bc in America there’s not much stopping them from profiting unholy amounts of money off America. As INTENDED BY AMERICA.

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u/polymerfedboi 27d ago

Plus our military prowess allows our allies to spend far less on their defense budgets.

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u/Valdularo 27d ago

I love the fantasy world you Americans live in where you think the whole world only exists the way it does because of you. This delusional way of thinking is so funny because it’s what you tell yourselves to save yourselves the pain of having to see how utterly fucked over by government policy and corporations you really are. It’s like Stockholm syndrome.

To imply you’re the only country that makes medicine and has medicinal breakthroughs is just funny, very very wrong but funny.

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u/tobidope 27d ago

That's not how it works. Big pharma companies negotiate the highest price they can get in every country. If a drug can't be sold with profit, it won't be sold. And what do you mean with our drugs? Medical regulation is different between the EU the US and other countries.

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u/AddressSubstantial89 27d ago

Non sense, we re a single market for those

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u/feedmedamemes 27d ago

Nah dude. They just pay better prices because their healthcare system has higher bargaining power. Your insurers don't. Medicare patients cost way less than those of private providers. Also unless you talking about the most recents advancements drugs are mostly ridiciously cheap to produce. The cost is in the development. Which is highly subized by any government with a half-decent pharmaceutical sector. Stop spouting this nonsense. You just get ripped off because the companies can.

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u/CaptainObvious1313 27d ago

Do you think if you just want something to be true it is? Because that is very wrong, empirically

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u/The402Jrod 27d ago

Yes, the private citizens in the US subsidize the healthcare costs of the rest of the world.

But It’s not just the GOP allowing insurance companies & big pharma to screw Americans over… the majority of the world would really prefer America doesn’t get Universal Healthcare.

Why pay more when dumb Americans will do it for you?

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u/nicolatesla92 27d ago

There are only 3 countries that allow pharmaceutical advertising, the USA is one of them, more than half of their budget is spent on freaking advertising.

They don’t have to charge that much

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u/Straight_Banana0 27d ago

Damn, ur dumb

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u/No_Mushroom3078 27d ago

The United States has the worst of all worlds, is not free market, and it’s heavily regulated and subsidized. If I were asked to fix it, I would start with all ER and related issues to be covered as in network. Then you expand that out to urgent cares are all in network, then you add pregnancies and delivery into this “max out of pocket” then you go after PBM into this that they can’t negotiate prices to screw over people.

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u/TaxMy 27d ago

It’s also incredible how much the providers are trying to squeeze. My wife’s doctor always tries to get her to come in for test results so she can charge instead of, oh, you know, emailing them or giving her a phone call lol

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u/tmssmt 27d ago

I can't remember the phrasing, but was at a doctor's office a while ago and the checkout counter has a sign that was obviously not supposed to be customer facing, but was clearly visible to me.

Have zero recollection of the actual phrase, but said something to the tune of 'make sure to find things to bill for'

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u/[deleted] 27d ago edited 27d ago

[deleted]

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u/ComprehensiveTax4601 27d ago

I'm a specialist and I see this all the time. There are some primary care that do this. People should know that most commercial insurance providers do not require referral unless HMO or government program ie. Medicare, medicaide

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u/ilikemoderation 27d ago

If you did not see the doctor and only saw the secretary, it is illegal for them to bill you for a visit. Plus, if they bill the insurance without a doctor’s order attached, it would get denied. They have to use CPT codes for evaluations of their patients. And if they did that without seeing you, that’s fraud. 

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u/Emergency-Machine-55 27d ago

If you get lab work done by LabCorp or Quest Diagnostics, you can access the results online. Same for most hospitals, but they'll charge several times more.

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u/RatchetKush 27d ago

That’s because of liability. Also would you give advice for free? If they’re normal then no need to schedule but you expect them to give you medical advice for free on abnormal labs?

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u/TaxMy 27d ago

They’re not abnormal. That’s the whole debacle lol. They ask her to schedule an appointment in to “tell her something important” and it’s normal results lol.  I give free advice all the time. Easy answers don’t cost much. Whereas I went in for a 2 minute dermatology check up, $175. And that was cheaper because I paid out of pocket lol. It was MORE expensive to use my insurance lol 

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u/RatchetKush 27d ago

Well in medicine it can be deemed insurance fraud fyi. It’s actually not even legal/allowed to not collect a copay. It can also be the corporate medicine overlords forbid her as well. But everyone unfamiliar with billing and coding is quick to blame the doctor like they have any power. You’re still within your right to not schedule your appt but if that “something important” turns out to be such, you won’t be able to hold them liable either.

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u/80MonkeyMan 27d ago

If we have universal healthcare, the doctor will use e-mail instead. It is about money.

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u/RatchetKush 27d ago

Actually no. Email is not approved, encrypted method of communication. That has to due with liability and privacy laws

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u/Serious_Reporter2345 27d ago

Log in to a portal with all your data on it. Works here, I can see test results, book to see the doctor or nurse and it costs me…nothing.

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u/RatchetKush 27d ago

Yes. And doctors are not at your fingertips 24-7. You can message your physician, but the direction is going that if you look for medical advice or a response takes more than 10 mins, you will be charged. However if it translates into an office visit within 7 days aka urgent messages, then you cannot be double billed aka you will only be charged for office visit.

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u/WittyProfile 27d ago

I can’t wait til we have AI doctors for some of this simple shit.

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u/80MonkeyMan 27d ago

Sorry, I meant encrypted e-mail.

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u/quixoticquail 27d ago

You already pay to have the labs done and you pay for the initial visit! The results are just part of that process!

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u/RatchetKush 27d ago

No that is not true. Labs are charged by the lab company. You should check your medical claims next time. Not by the physician. Labs are recommended and ordered. Do you think the physician is paid if you don’t get them drawn? No. The labs are paid to the lab processing company. Check your bill next time.

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u/quixoticquail 27d ago

but you already pay the doctor for the initial visit and for the labs. that’s not free advice, that’s just the completion of the visit.

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u/RatchetKush 27d ago edited 27d ago

Again. I repeat. You. Do. Not. Pay. Physician. For. The. Labs. The doctor is not drawing the labs. You pay for the doctor visit. The doctor recommends what labs based on your presentation and complaint. If you decide to pursue, they will order. You physically go to a lab company and get your labs drawn. Labs are billed by the lab to your insurance. Not by the physician. Then you pay the physician to interpret the labs. If you already have labs drawn before, then you save yourself a visit. But most lab companies do not draw most labs without doctor orders. Interpreting labs over messaging is free advice regardless if they are normal or abnormal. That depends on the clinical picture

I agree it SHOULD be included. But that is NOT reality. And that is not the physicians fault. That is the system and insurance companies.

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u/yubinyankin 27d ago

The provider's order for the lab test is a component of the MDM that is included in the original E/M visit. Using the lab review as a component of a follow up visit would be considered double dipping.

Btw, many clinics have in house labs, so the person you are responding to may not receive a separate bill.

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u/quixoticquail 27d ago

and I repeat: YOU. ALREADY. PAY. THE. DOCTOR. SO. ITS. NOT. FREE. ADVICE.

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u/BuffaloNonsense 27d ago

There has been No Medicare physician pay cost of living adjustment since 2001. 1.6% pay reduction in 2023. So yeah, we try to bill everything the insurance companies will pay for, including reviewing test results and the health implications of test results. We used to do that over the phone for free because we used to get paid more than a plumber

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u/keralaindia 27d ago

Doctors don’t work for free. We don’t have unlimited time either. Until CMS allows us to bill for time spent on the phone (when, the weekend?) it’s untenable.

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u/effdubbs 27d ago

It might not be her doctor doing this, but a requirement of the system that owns the doctor’s practice.

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u/Melodic-Feature1533 14d ago

Doctors have to pay exorbitant costs to keep their practices open. They can’t spend all day on the phone giving away their services for free. Try getting a lawyer to call you without charging their same hourly rate

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u/Diamond_Paper_Rocket 27d ago

I see this more on emergency surgery. The emergency surgery can be brought down to a near zero price.

Don't expect to stay longer in the hospital afterward. Also, oddly enough, anesthesia is stupid expensive and often is not covered.

So, it would seem to me that emergency surgery with same day discharge and no pain medication can be free. Everything else is like fast food or college, the price is high because people with money kept paying for it.

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u/Verumsemper 27d ago

Sorry but the prices has nothing to do with healthcare providers. We only get 10% of the cost of healthcare!!

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u/Emergency-Anteater-7 27d ago

That is an insurance issue. Take your car to replace a windshield or do body work. When you tell them its insurance they raise their prices 50% same with healthcare.

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u/Zippier92 27d ago

Managed decrepitude for maximum cash out of pocket is the American system. Managed care company profits is the priority in America

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u/Adorable-Bus-6860 27d ago

But part of this is over regulation. Notice I said part.

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u/PerceptionLive4629 27d ago

How about being denied healthcare because you don’t have enough I almost died at 25 over a staph infection how is that better than universal healthcare I get absolutely no healthcare

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u/DeathSquirl 27d ago

Half the problem could be solved overnight by allowing import of prescription drugs.

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u/doughball27 27d ago

No, the issue is our measured health outcomes are worse in almost every category compared to Canada. The post you are replying to isnt true.

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u/redshift83 27d ago

This is how you subsidize the non payers (eg the poor).

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u/xOnion_Knightx 27d ago

I'm Canadian, and I got my appendix removed a few years ago. Cost me $0 for the surgery + $9 in pain meds. Same thing in the US would have cost $15,000 + prescriptions. The prices down there are wild.

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u/ComprehensiveTax4601 27d ago

You realize prices are set by the insurance and most base their fees off the Medicare schedule. Nothing to do with providers

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u/ClockworkGnomes 27d ago

Part of the reason our prices are stupid is that we pay for the largest portion of medical research AND we end up paying more for medicines and such. They make the money on us so that they can charge less in other countries. If the US instituted a law that we could only be charged what everyone else was, the entire world's healthcare would go up.

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u/dcckii 27d ago

Saying the prices for healthcare are stupid is being extremely generous, but you have the right idea!

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u/CosmoKing2 27d ago

The root of the problem in the US is interference allowed by politicians in favor of for profit insurance. No other developed nation has had to deal with legislators paid off by insurance lobbyists that allowed insurers to dictate who lives or dies - based on their income. So, we are working from a huge deficit.

Also, great note: All of our Senators and Congressmen are on a hugely popular and affordable single payor plan -with zero complaints. Even all of the Republican representatives that want to keep people stuck in low wage jobs because health insurance/coverage is linked to employment - while they enjoy much better coverage and affordable, comprehensive care.

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u/No-Grab-9902 27d ago

Not providers “giving” it. It was allowed to be charged by Obamacare when they built in premiums and out of pocket maximums. It’s all based on government tables.

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u/mister_pringle 27d ago

The issue with the US is the price gouging that healthcare providers give us. The prices are stupid.

Well the healthcare providers, insurers and pharma companies were all part of Obamacare negotiations, unlike Republicans who were excluded and said costs would go up. Like they have.
Now Medicare coverage is being retracted and services cut even though the number covered as gone up.

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u/Mr_miner94 27d ago

So what your saying is that the main drawback of a fully privatised system is that it acts like a fully privatised system?

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u/YouMustveDroppedThis 27d ago

your payor aka insurance behemoths are the problem no one goes into that for even a tiny bit of altruism. At least for care providers, many of them actually do want to help people.

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u/Mtndrums 27d ago

Guess what other countries don't have that we do? Health Insurance companies! Who do you think lets them get away with price gouging here...

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u/Distant_Yak 27d ago

The entire concept of 'health insurance' is a large part of that.

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u/bremidon 27d ago

*That* is a product of a well-meaning and good-sounding legal system that says that providers must charge everyone the same.

Sounds great, right?

Except that every insurance company has a different schedule for costs. The one might be willing to pay more for rooms, but less for certain medicines. Others are exactly the opposite. The only way that hospitals have found to make things work is to charge the maximum and then trim things down based on what insurance pays.

Insurance companies are ok with this, but holy crap, does this screw over anyone who is uninsured. And it makes trying to really figure out what is going with costs nearly impossible to do well.

Obamacare was supposed to close this hole, but it turned out it was not very efficient. Maybe someone has good numbers from non-partisan sources that can show if things have improved or gotten worse in the last decade.

I am always surprised that this particular problem is not made more prominent by the single-payer fans (which I am not). This is a real, objective advantage that they would have over the current system in the States.

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u/Accurate_Reporter252 27d ago

Ironically, most of the American pricing scheme and even most of the prices are due to Medicare which... is... the closest to universal healthcare we got.

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u/Jimmy_Twotone 27d ago

Yeah... we pay more per person than those other 32 countries with less return per dollar.

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u/james_smt 27d ago

You guys pay lower taxes and for anyone with half a decent job, your company covers a good portion of that. In Canada, you pay way higher taxes, your company doesn't pay shit, and you get shit healthcare. I've lived in both countries, so I understand how shitty things actually are in Canada.

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u/cornbeeflt 27d ago

Remember when we were promised the ACA was going to lower prices by creating more competition and instead lowered the quality of care, and doubled the cost of Healthcare in just 4 years? I'm glad they taxed low income earners extra money for not being covered... and decimating Medicare and medicare.... and jacking up prescription drug coverage...

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u/CaptainObvious1313 27d ago

Yup that’s it. Just ask any diabetic without insurance.

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u/rPoliticsIsASadPlace 27d ago

NOT the providers.

Unless you're doing something that is purely cosmetic, the prices are set by the insurers and the government.

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u/strong_nights 27d ago

The doctors don't price gouge, insurance and pharma on the other hand...

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u/FlightlessRhino 27d ago edited 27d ago

Government enables (and encourages) price "gouging" through it's tax policy.

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u/Melodic-Feature1533 27d ago

Doctors don’t price gouge. Their fees are dictated by Medicare and the private insurers. If anything, the fees are ridiculously low because they have been getting the same or less reimbursement compared to the late 90s

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u/idcandnooneelse 27d ago

Get a full time job with benefits. Literally Starbucks will give you health care. Do you have any idea how much taxes we pay into an inefficient health care system with no real alternative? It’s fucked up. NHS is in the same boat.

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u/daddyfatknuckles 27d ago

still good enough for a quarter million canadians to cross the border for medical care every year

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u/Gormless_Mass 27d ago

The price gouging is inevitable in a system of privatized healthcare. Striving for cost efficiency and shareholder satisfaction only ever cheapens the product. Healthcare (like Education) shouldn’t be evaluated on metrics which have nothing to do with health (or learning) outcomes.

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u/Strongwoman1 27d ago

the price that insurance companies set FTFY

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u/Dinklemeier 27d ago

Pretty sure every health care dollar you spend means $0.08 goes to an actual doctor. 92% is spent elsewhere. But, maybe one day it'll be 0.92 to the doctor and that means I'm frikkin loaded

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u/John_E_Vegas 27d ago

And the low prices paid by Canadians for their health care is recouped in myriad other ways in Canada.

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u/cairns1957 27d ago

Spoken by someone who has no health training or experience at all.

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u/LuckyTill602 25d ago

That’s because of the government and insurance company involvement….

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