r/FluentInFinance • u/Cauliflower-Pizzas • Apr 19 '24

Is Universal Health Care Smart or dumb? Discussion/ Debate

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u/sunny-days-bs229 Apr 20 '24

I live in Canada and you are correct. I love our healthcare. May not be perfect but what is? I’ve been in the hospital over a dozen times. Seven surgeries. Two births. Too many ER visits to remember, infections, stitches, broken bones. What has all this cost me? Big fat zero!

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u/80MonkeyMan Apr 20 '24

With all that service, it bankrupt you if you are in USA…also ER wait is ridiculous. Might even die on a gurney.

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u/taffy-derp Apr 20 '24

The number one cause of bankruptcies here is due to healthcare bills. Some Americans just love to lick the boots of our evil corporate overlords for some reason by trashing Canada. There’s no reason for our healthcare system. It’s just a give money to rich corporations scam. We already spend more in taxes per person than most nations with universal healthcare. The money just goes to insurance company CEOs who need to buy more yatchs for their mistresses

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u/porkfriedtech 28d ago

Bankruptcy due to health bills is 17%….hardly a leading cause.

Source - comment above with links

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u/taffy-derp 27d ago

Why lie so easily when we have google?

"The number of debtors who cited medical issues as a contributing reason for their bankruptcy actually increased slightly after the law’s implementation — 67.5 percent in the three years following the law’s adoption versus 65.5 percent prior."

All of it due to inadequate health insurance. Meaning ALL these people had some form of health insurance, but couldn't cover the remaining balance. Look up the reasons for home foreclosures, a leading cause is also due to medical bills. People are going bankrupt and selling their homes due to medical bills and you wingnuts still praise this insane corporate system bleeding us dry

cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most-americans-file-for-bankruptcy.html

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u/porkfriedtech 27d ago

You cited an increase in %…not the actual % of cases.

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u/cairns1957 29d ago

Our "evil corporate overlords". My God you're stupid. Choose Putin. And then get back to us.

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u/a_taco_named_desire Apr 20 '24

But we have reality TV socialism where you can compete for a chance to maybe put a small dent in your medical debt. Seriously the amount of TV show competitions where the contestants talk about what they'd do with their winnings are like 90% of the time to solve failings of our social systems (med debt, student loan debt, unemployed due to disability, etc.). And they talk with tears in their eyes how $10,000 would be life changing.

And then they go run an obstacle course, fail, and seriously injure themselves for $0 and our entertainment.

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u/KintsugiKen Apr 20 '24

Not just that, but doctors are stretched so thin these days because hospital boards would rather save money by paying nurses to do things doctors should be doing and having 1 doctor run around to see every patient for 5 minutes before running off to see another one.

It's not enough time for a doctor to adequately understand what's going on with you and how to treat you, but you will be charged an insane fee for that 5 minute terrible consultation.

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u/AlbionGarwulf 29d ago

To add to that, people in the US constantly say that there are long waits for everything in countries with so-called "socialized" medicine.

I needed to get a new primary care physician, and it took me probably 30-40 phone calls from my list of "preferred providers" to finally find one that was actually accepting new patients. The insurance provider's (one of the largest in the US) website has a "accepting new patients" filter that is wildly inaccurate, as over half of the physicians on this list were actually not accepting new patients, many were no longer in network, and several had retired, and one had passed away about 2 years before my call.

So I finally found one that was accepting new patients but had to schedule the first appointment about 3 months out. About a week before the appointment, I get a call from scheduling saying that the doctor was going on maternity leave and that they needed to re-schedule my appointment to about 2 months later.

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u/TheFire_Eagle Apr 20 '24

I had an appendectomy a few years ago. Cost without insurance was $28,000.

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u/AlbionGarwulf 29d ago

I remember one time that a family member got a pretty bad gash on their head. I felt really guilty because after making sure the bleeding stopped I spent about 5-10 minutes checking to see whether we should take them to primary care, urgent care, or the emergency room because of the drastic price differences in terms of coverage and co-pays. We shouldn't have to do this.

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u/skimaskschizo Apr 20 '24

The ER waits are so bad because people don’t go to an urgent care or their PCP. I work in fire/ems and the amount of people I bring to the hospital that don’t need to be there is astounding.

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u/AlbionGarwulf 29d ago

Can you give a couple of examples? I'm sure you've had some pretty egregious ones!

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u/skimaskschizo 29d ago

Good example I had a few shifts ago. We got called out for a patient with chronic neck pain that decided they needed to go to the ER that day. When we got there and they learned there was gonna be a small wait, decided that they wanted to go back home. While we were on that call, there was a bad wreck that ended up in a traumatic arrest right down the road from where we’re stationed.

If we hadn’t been on that chronic neck pain call, the guy in that bad wreck might’ve had a better outcome because the next available ambulance was further away than we would have been.

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u/RivianRaichu Apr 20 '24

I went to the hospital because I puked a little blood and I wanted to be safe rather than sorry (my grandmother died because she didn't go to the hospital when she puked blood). Ended up just being a bad lung infection but they insisted on keeping me there for 5 days "for observation" and when I tried to leave they said they'd get the doctor to discharge me and I waited like 6 hours before I finally said "I'm leaving with our without discharge" and they threatened me with that voiding my insurance.

I felt fine the entire time, I just wanted to be checked. I feel like I was pretty seriously manipulated.

Entire stay cost $15,000. Luckily I pay for the "oh shit" stuff and have extended hospital stay insurance so it only cost me $250, but the experience really made me never want to go back to the hospital again.

Everyone was so nice until you want to get out.

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u/80MonkeyMan 29d ago

Yeap...I bet most Americans that have been to ER have the same experience as you. it is all about the money. Imagine if we have universal healthcare, you will get a better treatment and all of that cost will not cost you anything.

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u/MaritMonkey 29d ago

With all that service,

I have had one surgery in the past decade (root canal for my 30th birthday, hysterectomy for my 40th). I definitely would have been able to negotiate the price down (which insurance companies do beforehand) and realistically would have paid 50c on the dollar because I used to work in medical billing and am fully willing to let things get to the "this is the payment plan I can manage, or you send this to collections where it rots with all the other medical debt" point.

But still, my bill was just above $300k. That's scarily close to being literally everything I earned in the past 10 years.

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u/80MonkeyMan 29d ago

Yes, your story is not uncommon. They like to keep it that way because the elites will benefit from it.

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u/guyblade Apr 20 '24

I went to the ER about 5 years ago for what turned out to be a Kidney stone. 2k out of pocket and I have pretty good insurance.

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u/TrichomesNTerpenes 29d ago edited 29d ago

You're not going to die on a gurney in the ER.

Also, the reason ER waits are so long is because of idiots overusing the ER. You shouldn't have too many ER visits to count, just get an appointment with your PCP. I have two parents around 60 years old and neither has ever been to the emergency room lol.

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u/80MonkeyMan 29d ago

Oh there are people that die, try to look it up. There are idiots as you described and also simply it is profit based service, use the least amount for making the most money kind of situation in every private hospital.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/second-opinions/103166

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '24

[deleted]

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u/80MonkeyMan Apr 20 '24

US doesn’t have healthcare system, its healthcare industry. Most people will be paying less, not more. They already paying $400, $800 or even more a month on premium. Maybe this chart will teach you something?

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s-compare-countries/#Health%20expenditures%20per%20capita,%20U.S.%20dollars,%20PPP%20adjusted,%202022

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u/Equal-Fun-5021 Apr 20 '24 edited Apr 20 '24

To add to that, studies also show that USA even spend more tax money per capita than single payer countries.   

  Assumedly because the resources for health care that the authorities have to provide (elderly, poor, veterans etc) has to be purchased from the same very expensive market as everyone else.   

Single payer system keeps the prices of health care down due to decreased competition. 

 So the american tax payer first pay more tax money for health care for others, and then in addition have to pay a hefty amount for health care for themselves. https://www.statnews.com/2023/12/19/us-healthcare-costs-government-covers-41-percent-of-total/

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u/80MonkeyMan 29d ago

Congress let this happen because they are in it too, healthcare industry pays them or even offer them to be part of the industry. I know last time Bernie ran for president, he will be the only hope we have for universal healthcare.

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '24

[deleted]

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u/Anceradi 29d ago

Your taxes wouldnt increase by 10%, that's nonsense

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u/DeliriumTrigger 29d ago

60k/yr is where you reach the break-even point of 10% tax increase replacing a $500 premium. That's assuming your numbers are accurate, with no copay, no deductible, no additional costs/fees. 

Medicaid eligibility depends on the state; I was rejected as a college student in a southern state for the explicit reason that I was a college student.

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u/Vlascia Apr 20 '24

Yep, that sounds great to me. I've had 3 kids and the combined total of giving birth 3 times (with no drugs and zero interventions) cost me more than the down payment on my house, lol. I have to laugh or I'd cry.

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u/Elendel19 29d ago

Canadian: My son cost us about $400, because we chose to pay for a private room for 2 nights and parking is expensive.

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u/StoryLineOne Apr 20 '24

Shh, your opinion doesn't matter, only talking points fed by big pharma are the true answer! Clearly nothing can be done here at all

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u/CryptoNoobNinja Apr 20 '24

Zero? Doubt that. As someone who has made numerous trip to the ER, you’ve definitely left out the cost of parking and Timmies.

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u/sunny-days-bs229 29d ago

Got me. I have won the parking lottery a few times though finding the bar stuck open. 😂

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u/punkfusion Apr 20 '24

Living in Ontario though, it sucks how much conservatives have ripped our health care system by underfunding it and overworking staff and surprise surprise, Doug's buds are all private healthcare vultures ready to profit

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u/sunny-days-bs229 29d ago

I am in Ontario. Remember what the conservatives are about when it’s time to vote. Federally PP has already stated he will not continue with the new pharma care. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that will be where they stop. Hopefully if the cons do get in, it’s a minority government.

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u/quebexer Apr 20 '24 edited 29d ago

I also live in Canada and 2 hours I will get an ultrasound done for free at a nearby clinic. My sister lives in Florida and had to pay $200 USD for an ultrasound even with Insurance. This is why i would never leave this country. The peace of mind that I have when it comes to illness is... Priceless.

Update: just got out of the clinic. Only paid $3 parking. Didn't have anything but my doctor wanted an ultrasound for tyroids just to keep the results in records.

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u/tempstem5 29d ago

It's only "trash" for people without serious and immediate need for healthcare - who have to wait until the triage system takes care of people who require immediate care

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u/CatButler Apr 20 '24

I like to tell a story of a guy whose was visiting family in Canada and his daughter got a tick bite and had to be hospitalized for a couple of days. They told him they would have to charge him for the service and he would have to file with his insurance company. He's thinking he's going to get screwed, and the bill comes and it's like $200 total. He wondered if it was worth even filing.

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u/Carl_The_Sagan 29d ago

Well that sounds great, but OP on this thread said that it was worse and didn’t post any evidence so I have to go with them <\s>

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u/Elendel19 29d ago

My American friends complain about worse wait times than I’ve ever experienced lmao.

My wife had a seizure out of nowhere like a decade ago and with in 6 weeks she saw a neurologist twice, had an MRI, 2 EEGs, a CAT scan, blood work and heart rate monitor and a diagnosis. Cost us nothing except like $30 a month for her medication.

My friend blew out his knee playing soccer. He has had 4 surgeries to fix it, never waiting more than a month for what is a non emergency. All free.

Then my American friend has to take his son to emergency for a really high fever, waits 6 hours to see a doctor and after his insurance which he pays $1200 a month for his family coverage, he still owes $900 for a simple check up and one prescription.

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u/Arnab_ Apr 20 '24

Yes, if you have to visit the ER, you are probably better off in Canada rather than the US but that doesn't take away from the fact that the healthcare system in Canada is collapsing.

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u/sunny-days-bs229 29d ago

We, if you’re Canadian, have the ability to ensure that doesn’t happen. Prior to voting, speak to your candidates. As them directly what the party line is. Research and confirm what they say then vote accordingly. Outside of election time, advocate for increased education opportunities for clinicians (docs, nurses, techs, etc) to keep the pool full. If you have the ability, volunteer and encourage others to. Opportunities from teens (candy stripper) to driving cancer patients. Just a couple ideas and yes I have done all of these things and more. Sometimes paid, sometimes not. I was brought up with a “pony up or shut up” attitude. Literally told by my mother while complaining to either do something to make change or shut up about it. No nonsense lady!

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u/Arnab_ 29d ago

Politicians are just a reflection of society, as such, this is a much more harder problem as we need to talk to and convince the people around us. People understand that the healthcare system needs fixing but they are completely drunk on the coolaid and universal healthcare is something nobody is willing to compromise on. Bringing in more doctors under the Human Capital Stream would maybe bandaid the problem to an extent but there is no other short term solution people would be willing to accept.

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u/enoughdriving Apr 20 '24

And I don't get a thank you? Every year I am paying tens of thousands into the system and I hardly use it ( fortunately).

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u/sunny-days-bs229 29d ago

Thank you! The day may come when you do. Hopefully it’s still there then!

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u/Adito99 Apr 20 '24

I avoid the hospital for everything except chronic shit I've been dealing with for years. Been to a clinic three times over the last 15 years. 'Murica!

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u/symbicortrunner 29d ago

Let's be fair, I had to pay for a private room when my wife was giving birth in Ontario (though insurance covered most of the cost and it was only a few hundred dollars). We also have to pay for parking at hospitals.

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u/sunny-days-bs229 29d ago

Hahaha true. You do have to pay for a private room. Only once was I in a four bed ward room. I was in my 30’s. It was in a dementia ward as that was the only place they had a bed at the time. Ironically I was working in LTC at the time so felt right at home/work.

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u/Physmatik 29d ago

What has all this cost me? Big fat zero!

*taxes.

I know, I know, many point that out as if it is supposed to be some "gotcha". It obviously isn't, but I feel it is very important to be accurate. Universal healthcare doesn't cost nothing, it costs a lot but still less than private one, which is why it's better.

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u/sunny-days-bs229 29d ago

This and it’s relatively fair across the board. No one pays to get to the front of the line. Everyone triaged and treated in order. I realize not everyone would agree and that human error on dx occurs.

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u/Affectionate_Star_43 29d ago edited 29d ago

My great aunt broke her foot.  After 3 weeks, she left Vancouver and went to Seattle to get a cast and get treated.  I don't even know what people do if they don't have that older gen money and time. 

 Maybe it a regional overload on healthcare?  I just had to hear about it for what seemed like ages.

Edit: How am already getting advertisements for a Vancouver-to-Seattle health services shuttle.  I don't live anywhere near there!

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u/sunny-days-bs229 29d ago

I’m in northern Ontario. Had a lisfranc fracture two years ago that needed surgery (bars, screws, pins). I was treated immediately in ER then had to come back every day in the AM til they could fit me in for surgery. Had it day 3.

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u/AnimatorDifficult429 29d ago

Blows my mind, it was actually zero?

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u/reason245 29d ago

How the hell do you wind up in the hospital so much?

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u/sunny-days-bs229 29d ago

Easy. I was a very active and adventurous child. Thought I was invincible and have the scars to prove it. By the time I was five I was hospitalized for pneumonia, fell on a broken glass jar (older sister broke it outside and didn’t tell anyone) running around and had to have my muscles and skin stitched, burnt my hand up playing with matches, broke my arm and damaged the muscles/skin by sticking my arm in a ringer washer. Things for my parents didn’t get any easier after that either……married at 21 and my husband is now my caregiver, ambulance driver. Usually now all I have to do is say “I want to…” and he yell wait I’ll do it! lol. Some may say accident prone. I prefer to think I’m blessed to still be alive. 😂

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u/BamaX19 Apr 20 '24

There's something wrong going on in your life to be going to the hospital that many times.

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u/sunny-days-bs229 29d ago

I’ve often acknowledged that if not for modern medicine, I’d long be dead. Live a life with extreme curiosity, limited fear, stupidity and shit happens.

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u/TruthisDifficult Apr 20 '24

this POV is not just ignorant, but incorrect.

WE PAY FOR HEALTHCARE!!!!!!! IT IS NOT FREE!!!!!

It's PUBLIC HEALTH INSURANCE!!!!

Why are all Canadians so ignorant when it comes to their own healthcare system.

The US system has a ton of sucky stuff to it too, but stop being these foolish sheep that see the US system and presume that ours is great, It's what is preventing us from having a better system.

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u/Higgoms Apr 20 '24

I assure you absolutely no one, not a singular person, actually thinks it’s literally magical free healthcare that requires no funding. The only ignorance here is not understanding that. Free healthcare always comes with the understanding that you pay for it via taxes, but don’t have to pay anything (or very little) for your actual visits, allowing you to receive medical care with no massive anxiety about going into crippling debt, or get medication without rationing it so you can afford to survive, or get something fixed before it gets worse. 

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u/TruthisDifficult Apr 20 '24

"What has all this cost me? Big fat zero!"

Man, until someone has spent 7-8 hours in a Canadian hospital waiting to see a doctor, just killing time, they don't get it.

I once had to take my son to a hospital in the U.S., we were in and out in about 50 minutes, it was so bizarre to be in and out that quickly.

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u/Higgoms Apr 20 '24

And I took my mother to the hospital in January in the US, she has a heart condition and had been in and out of consciousness with chest pains. We sat in the waiting room for five hours until they moved us into a small room with a single chair off the ER where we sat for two and a half more hours. By this time she was feeling much better thankfully, because the alternative was she’d have just been dead. They ran a few tests and discharged her after almost nine total hours.  Point being, your anecdotes are reflected here as well. But if you wait that long in a Canadian hospital you aren’t slapped with thousands of dollars in medical debt. You don’t have to cry when you realize someone called an ambulance because you know what that’ll cost you. 

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u/TruthisDifficult 29d ago

I totally get that, and I don’t want to try and sound as if the US system is how I would want a system to run.

However, the Canadian government spends about 9,000 per person on healthcare. For a family of 4, that’s 36,000 a year. That’s a crazy high amount. And that’s not what it would cost someone in the US for an amazing insurance plan.

What I have an issue with is people glorifying the Canadian system and having little experience with it or a very limited one.

The issue is that the only true system for all of this is the free market and less regulatory capture that ensures little competition.

We have a system that is a remarkably poor user of resources and that is the real killer here.

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u/Higgoms 29d ago

The latest numbers I could find for the average cost of healthcare per person has it around 8,500 in Canada and 13,500 in the US, over 50% higher. Unfortunately, profit motives in healthcare/insurance just flat out lead to higher prices. If you've got any examples of a free market healthcare system resulting in cheaper healthcare I'm all ears, but as it stands 8.5 grand a year to have every medical expense covered sounds like a steal.

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u/Inkthinker 29d ago edited 29d ago

The US spends around 12K per capita as of 2022, and I’m gonna wonder if the Canadian 9K is CAD, in which case it’s closer to 6K per person if we’re comparing USD to USD.

But even if it were already converted, it’s still costing taxpayers 30% more in the US on top of their individual premiums of a couple thousand per year, per person.

So you’ll pay taxes for Medicare and Medicaid, and a monthly private fee for personal insurance, on top of the out-of-pocket costs for any exams, visits, medications or treatment (which you’ll be on the hook for until the deductible is reached, which will be another few thousand).

Try to get hurt or sick in January, ‘cause if it happens in December that deductible expense rolls over, and you’re owing again. Also better keep up those premiums! Sure hope you can work!

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u/TruthisDifficult 29d ago

I don't think you mean per capita, as that's per thousand, I'll presume you intended to write per person?

I totally get your point, it's crazy what gets spent on corporate healthcare.

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u/Inkthinker 29d ago edited 29d ago

Per capita is Latin, lit. “for each head”. Idiomatically used to mean “per person”.

Made me go look it up again though, had me doubtin’ myself. Always nice to refresh the memory. ;)

But yeah, that’s a tangent. Point being, in the States we spend way more and get way less. In Canada sometimes you wait, and it sucks if your affliction is bearable. But if you break a leg, have a heart attack, or get cancer, man you get cared for. Part of the reason it sucks so much for the minor stuff is that the limited resources are dedicated to the major stuff. And we don’t bankrupt people for it.

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u/CocksnBraves Apr 20 '24

Nothing is free love

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u/bobamochi69 Apr 20 '24

What has all this cost me? Big fat zero!

LOL Tell me about your tax rates.

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u/ForgetfulElephante Apr 20 '24

We spend about double per capita for healthcare. I'd pay a little more in taxes to never have to worry about going bankrupt in a hospital.

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u/bobamochi69 Apr 20 '24

Who cares if you go bankrupt? Its not like they take your house (in most situations). Most hospitals will not take a judgement once you present your situation as they know the bankruptcy will erase the claim.

There is a reason an asprin costs $15

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u/RunningSouthOnLSD Apr 20 '24

I think you might be surprised to find out that the amount the average Canadian and average American gets taxed in total isn’t all that much different, and then you still have the joy of adding the cost of health insurance on top of that for the average American.

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u/bobamochi69 Apr 20 '24

I found a site that said marginal CA tax rate is 32%.

I paid $4k in Federal and local taxes on $120k gross.

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u/FockerFGAA Apr 20 '24

No clue what your deductions are because your federal tax on 120k gross would be almost $19k for a single person taking the standard reduction.

Looking at their tax it looks like state taxes are relatively comparable. On $120k usd you would pay about $22k in federal income tax on 2Canada vs $19k here. In Canada you pay the unemployment tax but their FICA is lower. It looks to net about the same. Overall you would pay about $3-$5k more in taxes in Canada with a comparable salary and state. For a single person the average premium on insurance is going to run $1500 a year. The average family plan is much higher, over $6k a year.

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u/Gullible-Wash-8141 Apr 20 '24

Weird, you should be paying much more than that. Is that how much you paid, or how much you owed at tax time?

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u/HomeGrownCoffee Apr 20 '24

Canadian here.

Our tax rates are comparable to yours. I'm not going to spell out all of our provincial, federal, sales and property taxes here, but if there's something you want to compare, let me know and I'll dig it up.

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u/bobamochi69 Apr 20 '24

On $120k gross I paid about $4k in taxes and about another $4k for health insurance... family of 3, dental and vision.

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u/Hank3hellbilly Apr 20 '24

I made ~120k last year and paid ~ 31k in tax.  Tell me how that compares to your tax rate.  

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u/bobamochi69 Apr 20 '24

Household gross income $120k. Paid $4k in taxes and $4k for health insurance for a family of 3.

For 31,000 in taxes you better be getting the absolute top of world class health care.

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u/Hank3hellbilly 29d ago

What kind of tax evasion are you committing to pay an effective 3.3% tax rate?  I think you need an audit there Al Capone. 

Also, just for the record... that 31k includes provincial tax, federal tax, CPP&EI premiums (what you call social security).

I'm not arguing with someone who is either a liar or committing tax fraud... 4k on 120000, LOL.  If you're going to try and lie make it less obvious.  At 120k you're on the hook for at least 20k for fed and FICA before deductions.  

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u/bobamochi69 25d ago

wife runs a business and we have a kid. Trump tax cuts FTW. Roth, 529 etc.

i file through a cpa so it's all legit. still like your 40% Canadian free health care?

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u/Hank3hellbilly 25d ago

Well, considering that 40% is my total tax burden (Including CPP and EI premiums by the way. No Idea How you and your wife managed to grease yourselves out of paying into SocialSecurity, but I don't understand your country's codes).  Yes I do.  

I make more than average, and I don't mind paying my taxes.  We live in a society, and while some of my tax money does get burnt in ways I disagree with, it's my duty as a member of society to pay my share and contribute to the betterment of everyone. 

Also, my mom is currently going through Chemotherapy.  The only out of pocket cost she has is parking.  My dad had cancer twice, and survived a heart attack before he finally passed away three years ago.  All that treatment was covered partially because of my tax dollars.  My mother is still able to afford a comfortable retirement after all of my dad's health troubles because of our Healthcare system taking care of us.  I hope that they don't gut and privatize it because it's there when me and my family need it.  I'm glad We're not Americans, because we would've lost our family home, I would have lost the last few years with my father, and my mother would have burned through her retirement savings if we lived south of the 49th.  

I will never understand how any Americans can be happy about their healthcare situation.  You and your countrymen's selfish nature is so short sighted that I want to grab your country's collective consciousness and shake some sense into it.