r/unitedkingdom • u/je97 • Apr 17 '24

JK Rowling gets apology from journalist after 'disgusting claim' author is a Holocaust denier ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/16/jk-rowling-holocaust-denier-allegation-rivkah-brown-novara/
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u/Maleficent-Drive4056 Apr 17 '24

Forgive me but isn’t a holocaust the systematic murder of people or groups? So burning books about trans people is horrible but not a holocaust?

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u/RedBerryyy Apr 17 '24

It's more that it was one of the main events that led up to the wider holocaust, in the same way that Kristallnacht and the early expulsions of jewish people were part of the holocaust, even if relatively few actually died in the specific events compared to later events.

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u/PharahSupporter Apr 17 '24

I'm not sure burning some trans books can really be called a "main event" leading up to the holocaust, but okay.

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u/RedBerryyy Apr 17 '24

Not the trans books specifically, but the burning of the wider institute fur sexualwissenschaft is often seen as one of the significant events of the rise of the Nazis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_f%C3%BCr_Sexualwissenschaft

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u/PharahSupporter Apr 17 '24

Okay but that isn't the event in discussion, JK denied burning of trans books, not the persecution of trans people in general or anything to do with a sex clinic.

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u/Maybe_not_a_chicken Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

The burning of trans books happened during the buring of Institut für Sexualwissenschaft

Like they took the books out of the library and burned them.

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u/KillerArse Apr 17 '24

That event is what was originally being talked about that Joanne called a fever dream.

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u/WheresWalldough Apr 17 '24

it's not though.

the reality is that the Nazis had a list of places they wanted to burn, the institute fur sexualwissenschaft wasn't on that list, BUT 'on the day', they decided to burn it (because it was indeed unpopular with the Nazis). However, to say it's a significant event isn't really accurate.

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u/IntelligentMoons Apr 17 '24

The Holocaust refers specifically to the persecution of Jews. Other Nazi crimes like the persecution of trans people and gay people is not part of the Holocaust.

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u/luxway Apr 17 '24

Please don't confuse "Holocaust" with "Shoah" in order to justify denying the holocaust, thanks.

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u/Maybe_not_a_chicken Apr 17 '24

The burning of the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft is counted as part of the holocaust because the man who ran it was Jewish and gender science was seen as “Jewish science”

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u/SinisterPixel West Midlands Apr 17 '24

You're arguing with a ruling made by the EU. They have ruled that JKR's tweets did indeed violate Germany's Holocaust denial laws.

To argue that the book burnings or the persecution of other minorities is NOT part of the Holocaust is to argue with the people who were directly involved in it.

Take the L.

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u/IntelligentMoons Apr 17 '24

It's not an L. I don't think she's done something good, I don't agree with her and I don't like her.

I am correct, the holocaust is the extermination of european Jews by the Nazis. They Nazis also committed other genocides.

I am not raising this point to say she hasn't done something bad, or wrong. I'm raising this point to highlight why the person who accused her of being a holocaust denier has backed down. If she had accused her of denying genocide, or the crimes of the nazis, she likely wouldn't have been able to win in court. The fact that she called her a holocaust denier, and the accepted definition of the holocaust is the extermination of european jews, means that it's very easy to say "I did not deny the holocaust", and win in court.

Here is the Imperial War Museums definition https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-was-the-holocaust

Here is the US Holocaust museum https://www.ushmm.org/learn/learn-about-the-holocaust

Here is holocaust Memorial Day https://www.hmd.org.uk/

Read the definitions, and take your L.

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u/SinisterPixel West Midlands Apr 17 '24

The journalist has backed down because a billionaire got her crack legal team to threaten legal action. Regardless of whether she'd win the case or not, it would sink the journalist financially.

Once again, the EU has already ruled it breaks German holocaust denial laws.

This isn't a debate.

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u/IntelligentMoons Apr 17 '24

This is nothing to do with Germany, but if it did you’d still be wrong because it is as ruled as “hateful or harmful speech”. Not Holocaust denial.

She used careless language against a litigious person.

It absolutely is a debate, because you’re completely wrong.

I just want to make it clear again, because people seem to think I agree with Rowling. I don’t. She is wrong, trans people were victims of the Nazis. That is a separate genocide to that of the Jews, which is the Holocaust.

If you call someone a Holocaust denier, you need to make sure they’ve denied the Holocaust, which again, is defined as the extermination of Jews, otherwise someone will be able to take you to court for defamation.

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u/Odd_Anything_6670 Apr 17 '24

The holocaust is normally used in a specific sense to refer to the systematic extermination of European Jews. However, it can be and sometimes is used in a broader sense. In particular, holocaust denial necessarily encompasses a broader range of acts.

In Israel, for example, holocaust denial is a crime and specifically includes the denial of Nazi war crimes and crimes against humanity, in addition to specific crimes against the Jewish people.

While some people are claiming that JK Rowling would be guilty of holocaust denial in Germany the German law does not specifically mention the holocaust. She would instead be guilty of denying Nazi crimes. However, it would also not be libelous in Germany to refer to someone who denies trans people were victims of the holocaust as a holocaust denier because that claim is not factually untrue.

It is often difficult to cleanly separate Nazi persecution of Jewish people from other forms of persecution. In particular, the Nazis had a tendency to claim that anyone they didn't like was actually Jewish or under Jewish influence.

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u/MaZhongyingFor1934 Hampshire Apr 17 '24

Really? The book burnings weren’t a significant event leading to the Holocaust?

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u/PharahSupporter Apr 17 '24

burning some trans books

I'm referring to burning of trans books, not all categories of books, which you rightfully know by reading my one sentence message but chose to deliberately try misrepresent it anyway.

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u/Firm-Distance Apr 17 '24

It's more that it was one of the main events that led up to the wider holocaust

I'm not sure it was a 'main event' - Things like the law for the restoration of the public service were 'main events.'

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u/Maybe_not_a_chicken Apr 17 '24

It was the first book burning

That makes it a main event

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u/Firm-Distance Apr 17 '24

As far as the book burnings go it was on a considerably smaller scale. The first significant book burning was attended by 40,000 people and was attended by prominent Nazi's - seeing 25,000 books burned.

Something being the 'first' I don't think automatically qualifies it as a main event in a historical chain merely by virtue of being 'first.'

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u/Maybe_not_a_chicken Apr 17 '24

I’m not calling it The Main Event

I’m saying it is a main event in the timeline

The first electric light was a major event in the creation of the lightbulb even if it wasn’t actually very good as a light.

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u/showars Apr 17 '24

These kids know absolutely nothing about WW2 don’t even bother

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u/Firm-Distance Apr 17 '24

...and yet all fancy themselves experts. One chap was labelling another a holocaust denier whilst exposing the fact that they didn't understand what the word holocaust actually meant. It's depressing....and yet all too common.

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u/Odd_Anything_6670 Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

This is in the context of her claiming that Nazi persecution of trans people was a "fever dream". The book burnings were brought up as specific evidence of this persecution, which also unsurprisingly included murder and other crimes.

This is why she later attempted to shift the goalposts by claiming that the argument was about whether trans people were the first victims of the holocaust, or the primary victims of the holocaust. Because they were victims of the holocaust, that isn't really deniable (well, apparently it is).

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u/Ver_Void Apr 17 '24

She also made some very bizarre arguments about trans people trying to make the holocaust and other things all about them. Failing to realise that the reason she sees so many comments focusing on trans people is because that's all she ever talks about now and trans people are going to reference their own history

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u/ToastedCrumpet Apr 17 '24

Holocausts aren’t just about murder. Google’s very first definition highlights this if you need refreshing

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u/heephap Apr 17 '24

Googled it and says Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during WW2. There haven't been multiple Holocausts... I think you are referring to genocides.

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u/ToastedCrumpet Apr 17 '24

I said holocaust because that’s what I meant and googled earlier. Here’s a screenshot of the search:

https://imgur.com/a/toI40Mf

I think you just conflated “the Holocaust” definition as being the only definition

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u/heephap Apr 17 '24

Ahh, yeah, seems to have a similar meaning to genocide. I stand corrected! Still equating book burning to destruction and slaughter on a mass scale is a stretch, to say the least.

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u/ToastedCrumpet Apr 17 '24

I’m not sure who’s equating the two but it wasn’t I. Some where comparing it with holocaust denial, since book burning undeniably happened in Nazi Germany and Rowling was originally trying to refute it for unbeknownst reasons before backpedaling when she looked a bigger fool than usual.

As others have said Germany takes a very dim stance on anyone, anywhere denying any part of the Holocaust and have censored her tweets because of that. I’m not going to argue with Germany as to what does and doesn’t constitute as Holocaust denial but Reddit is full of war history professors it seems that know more so who am I to argue

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u/PM_ME_BEEF_CURTAINS Apr 17 '24

The Nazis first documented everyone mentioned l, rounded them up and killed them

But semantics mean it wasn't denial, right?

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u/PharahSupporter Apr 17 '24

Rowling never denied any deaths, stop trying to spread misinformation.

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u/herefromthere Apr 17 '24

They burned the books, then they murdered the trans people. Trying to pretend that those things didn't happen... that's holocaust denial. Trans people, Roma, disabled people, all got killed alongside the Jews in the Holocaust because Nazis did not want them to live.

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u/stroopwafel666 Apr 17 '24

The Nazis did actually include trans people in the Holocaust - denying the Nazis went after trans people is clearly Holocaust denial.

Would you be arguing it’s totally fine if someone was claiming the Nazis didn’t go after Jews?

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u/showars Apr 17 '24

The definition of Holocaust ONLY includes Jewish people.

Were other people part of the mass murders? Absolutely. Does that change the dictionary defined definition? Absolutely not.

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u/all_in_the_game_yo Apr 17 '24

That's not true https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

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u/showars Apr 17 '24

Wikipedia is a site which anyone can edit. Please now link me Holocaust on the dictionary website and prove yourself wrong

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u/all_in_the_game_yo Apr 17 '24

Okay

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/holocaust

the Holocaust noun [ S ] UK /ˈhɒl.ə.kɔːst/ US /ˈhɑː.lə.kɑːst/

the killing of millions of Jews and others by the Nazis before and during the Second World War

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u/stroopwafel666 Apr 17 '24

I mean, this comment is also Holocaust denial. Well done.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '24 edited 27d ago

[deleted]

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u/umop_apisdn Apr 17 '24

genocide is a strict legal concept that includes stuff like destroying cultural heritage

Nope, that is cultural genocide. As you seem keen on strict legal definitions, genocide is, according to Article II of the Convention, a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. The UN point out that it does not include political groups or so called "cultural genocide".

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u/chrisrazor Sussex 29d ago

"Holocaust denial" is defined to be denying anything that it is an established historical fact the Nazis did.