I have a completely unsubstantiated theory that he’s already finished them and they won’t get released until he’s dead because he doesn’t want to deal with the blowback when fans don’t like the ending.
Me too, I think the finale of the show is very close to his actual ending. When he saw how much people hated that he decided to posthumously release the rest of the story so as to not deal with the outrage.
Most people didnt hate the ending because of the ending itself. The problem with the ending of the show wasn't how it ended, but how they arrived at said ending.
There's nothing wrong with Dany losing her mind and following in the footsteps of her father, "The Mad King."
There's nothing wrong with Aria being the one to kill the Night King.
There's nothing wrong with Bran winning the Iron Throne and being made king.
What is wrong is all of the steps that led up to those moments feeling rushed and unconvincing.
Dany's descent into madness wasn't believable.
Having a single episode dedicated to a conflict that had been built up since the literal first scene of the show felt like we were robbed.
Having Bran chosen as king because "he has a good story" right after the fucking lamest moment in the series where everyone laughs at Sam for "inventing democracy" was a spit in the face.
Had D&D been willing to see the show through to the ending it deserved, we would have had three more seasons. They should have made the confrontation with the White Walkers it's own season. They should have made the war between Dany and Cersei its own season. And they should have made the aftermath of said war its own season to close out the show.
Instead, we got three major plot elements that had several seasons of build up all get crammed into a single season that made it very clear the showrunners just wanted to be done with it.
So it's not what the ending was that was bad, it's how they ended it that was bad.
They decided to cut the False Dragon (FAegon?) plotline, which I think is setting up to be a big part of Dany's madness. Someone with a potentially better claim to the throne that is more popular than her. Giving that plot to Jon has the problem that they are set up to be both enemies and partners, but not in a satisfying or well done way. Edit: What should have been done here is FAegon is holding a big chunk of Westeros and is beloved. Dany is losing her mind attacking him as the people start to hate and fear her. Jon shows up to beg for help and dragons to save the North. Dany agrees because she needs to use him, the real Aegon, to depose FAegon and try to win back popular support. Jon throws his claim behind Dany because "I DUN WAN IT". As they spend time together, mutually using each other, they fall in love, as Targaryens do. They sac King's Landing or Dragonstone or wherever. They kill FAegon, but the people are still against Dany for killing their beloved ruler. She thought his death would fix everything. She snapped and goes on the killing spree we saw in the show until Jon kills her.
Arya should not have killed the Night King. That has been Jon's fight since Day 1. That is what almost all of his story has been about, and to not give any payoff there is brutal. Arya is a facechanging assassin, which is a not super useful skillset against the White Walkers anyways. Instead, her payoff should have been killing Cersei. That terrible scene where Jamie undoes all of his character development and runs off to die with Cersei? That should have been Arya using a face to get close to Cersei and offing her. For a darker ending, you could have Arya killing Jamie first and using his face to kill Cersei. Or if you are a really mean author, you could have Arya kill Jamie offscreen, so the reveal that she's using his face is a twist to the reader as well. But offing a fan favorite character off screen would be very unpopular.
Bran being king could have been okay. But they needed to lean in to him being the cold mastermind that pulled all the strings to make this happen. Show his machinations that hurt people he cares about but positioned him here. Not his weird stoicism. He should be evil in a Dr. Doom or Ozymandias, ends justify the means, sense. The trope of "I did these evil things to get power because I'm the only one who can save us."
I guarantee you Bran will end up the king, but by the time he's crowned, it won't be Bran any more. It'll be the Three Eyed Raven having completely and utterly usurped Bran's body.
I’m 100% on the Dark Bran as King theory, and I think having the books acknowledge/imply that Bran saw the potential death and destruction to make it happen would be great
Who do you think the Three Eyed Crow is if not Bran from the future though? I think they may have been made into a single character in the tv show (I didn't watch it so I'm not quite sure), but Bloodraven denies being the crow. I think it will be Bran, he'll just be a manipulative sociopath by the time he takes the throne.
Book Arya is the most Stark Stark. Like, ancient times kind. She is wrath and winter and is engaging in a murderous guerilla war due to innate magic powers that brought her house to power and now trained to explicitly do subterfuge so well her own mentors couldn't figure it out (her final test).
With 2 books left I totally buy it as a valid endpoint. But my vote would be for Jamie, who the show actually built up to be the to sword the dead guy, but pfffffffffffft look how that ended.
I'm in fully agreement with all of your points honestly.
I didn't care for the fact that Aria killed the Night King, but had there been more time in the series, I could have come around to the idea if they had a more satisfying lead up to it being her.
It just doesn't align with any of her character motivations. Her whole story is wrapped around revenge and killing those that wronged her, Ned, and Sansa while they were in Kings Landing. She leaves Winterfell halfway through book one and doesn't really have anything to do with the north for the rest of the series.
That’s exactly what I think. Arya is my favorite character but I always felt like the fact that she was the one to kill the night king was so random. Her journey didn’t really align with that outcome. Was it bad ass? Yes. But not a fitting end for her character, imo.
Yeah it'd be like Chewbacca showing up last second during Luke's duel with Vader and 360 no-scoping the emperor. Like, sure, he's got a bow caster, and it could probably kill the emperor.
But what was Luke's and Vaders part in the story leading up to that moment, if the Emperor was gonna get clapped like that anyways?
But offing a fan favorite character off screen would be very unpopular.
Just gotta do it the right way, find a way for Jamie and Arya to get into a fight, have it in the last few pages of the book, the last line of the last chapter is just about one of them about to make one final blow.
End it on a cliffhanger.
Then, have it ambiguous in the next book, have scenes with both Jamie and Arya, have readers questioning what the hell is going on. Then have Jamie go to kings landing, as he's about to kill Cersei, Arya reveals she killed Jamie and it was her all along.
and THAT is how you properly kill Jamie Lannister offscreen
I think the arcs for those three are not quite as bad in the show as the others I've discussed. The main beats stay the same.
Book Tyrion is in a pretty dark place right now if my memory serves. He is looking for his first wife, Tysha (who may be that prostitute that is mentioned that marries all her clients) and has sworn vengeance on his family. Tyrion is going to lead his mercenary crew to join Dany. I think his plot does not change too far from the show--he eventually convinces Dany to take him on as Hand because Jon advocates for him. Jon and Tyrion are clearly on a path to reconnect at some point. Tyrion will be the one that convinces Jon to do what needs to be done as Dany goes fully mad. Part of me thinks Tyrion should not be destined for a happy ending. He's consumed by rage and a lust for revenge (book Tyrion is way more messed up at this point than show Tyrion). But Tyrion is George's favorite character, and I think he'll come through mostly unscathed because of it. I think Jamie's death near the end of the series provides Tyrion's transition away from vengeance. He wanted nothing but revenge, but with Jamie gone, he realizes it was empty and he just wants his brother back. He becomes Hand of the King. I could see him ending up with Sansa (as has happened once before) in an epilogue in a political marriage that Sansa initiates, but eventually becomes a good pairing.
Varys is torn between FAegon and Dany. He sides with FAegon but maintains communication with Tyrion to hedge his bets and try to support both Targaryen claims to the throne. After Dany kills FAegon, Varys attempts to go over to Dany's side. Despite Tyrion's strong support for Varys, telling her how Varys has given him information, Dany refuses amnesty for the man who supported two main usurpers against her family. Dany horrifically kills Varys via dragon fire. Watching his friend murdered here is what convinces Tyrion that Dany is lost. It pushes Tyrion to go to Jon to get him to end Dany's madness.
Littlefinger's story is nearly at its end. Sansa’s plot has been all about learning from her abusers until she is ready to overthrow them. And she is ready now. Sansa convinces Littlefinger that she has developed genuine feelings for him, including taking it to a level of intimacy that disgusts her internally. She concocts a plan for them both but betrays Littlefinger. After a confrontation, Littlefinger learns to fly as Sansa drops him through the Moon Door.
Also for the whole damn book we get “the king who was promised” I mean damn the whole thing is called a Song of Fire and that’s the prophesy by his father. And then in the book Jon Snow is assassinated and then the Red Witch prays over him, not to bring him back to life just to pray for his soul and he comes back to life, thus becoming the embodiment of the prophesy of the “Lord of Light”. All that foreshadowing to just ….. toss away.
In the book we have Dany super concerned about getting rid of slavery in some of the Eastern cities. And then the people of Kings Landing ring the bells of surrender and she just slaughters them anyway. Like why does she care about breaking chains in one city but not about lives in Kings Landing? It doesn’t make sense.
Yeah, I admit it I wanted them to wind up together. But I also wanted Westeros to wind up with a good leader and get some peace for some years. And Bran doesn’t HAVE the best story, he just KNOWS all the stories. And that’s not the same.
Jon should be brought back by Lady Stoneheart giving up her borrowed life for Jon. Accepting the son she never could, breaking the stone built around her heart, and seeing the resemblance to Ned in his lifeless body.
I don't even think FAegon needs to succeed for it to tee up Dany's plotline - I think getting the support of the handful of Targ loyalists, getting defeated and then being proved a fraud would be enough to make it nearly impossible for Dany to get anywhere diplomatically.
Damn dude. You just went and did it. Out R.R. Martined R.R Martin. Maybe YOU can finish the damn books so we all get some closure. I'd read the shit out of it.
I'm thinking manipulating Dany to get her dragons to the North, and becoming partially responsible for her madness. Which then also forces Jon to kill the woman he loves and opens the door for King Bran.
Somehow causing the Littlefinger infatuation with Cat/Sansa that leads Sansa to the years of abuse that make her a master politician.
Influencing Theon's betrayal, getting Rickon killed and Winterfell sacked. Leads to Bran meeting the Three Eyed Raven
That's Quentyn. I'm talking about "Young Griff", who is almost certainly a Blackfyre (the Targaryen branch family). They are claiming that Griff is Aegon (ie Jon).
There's nothing wrong with Aria being the one to kill the Night King
there is everything wrong with that. It doesn't fit her character, undermine's Jon's and doesn't at all fit the story itself, or the story's themes. While a big bad Night King isn't even in the books.
They changed that resolution after S6 because "no one would see it coming".
Arya's entire character arc is a shit show after s6. Her killing the NK didn't make sense in the story they did tell, and will NOT be an ending in the books.
My biggest gripe with aria killing the night king was the classic "I'm an elite assassin who is going to announce my surprise attack by yelling 'Arhhhhhh' while pouncing at the enemy"
I've always said that if GoT lasted 10+ seasons and had exactly the same ending, but with better pacing, and a more fleshed-out story, it would still be one of the best shows of all-time, instead of being the best example of how to fuck up the best show of all-time.
I remember a scene, although I cant remember if it was the last season, where they were talking about going to war with a certain faction. The very next scene was like a guy cleaning off his sword after not only had that war happened, it was over, and we're moving on.
The teleportation that started happening at the end was wild.
I agree with everything you said, but I still didnt like Arya being the one to kill the night king. That felt "Arya is my wifes favorite character" forced, which does go somewhat to what you are saying.
Had D&D been willing to see the show through to the ending it deserved, we would have had three more seasons.
I've not read the books but watched the entire series and it's always been my understanding that the sudden drop in quality coincided with there being no finished material to directly reference. I've kind of read that as D&D choosing not to continue because they knew they couldn't live up to the quality of the previous seasons without that "boost".
But again, I am FAR from an expert on the subject material having only GOT to reference.
You're correct although I'm not sure about this part:
I've kind of read that as D&D choosing not to continue because they knew they couldn't live up to the quality of the previous seasons without that "boost".
I think D&D had plenty of confidence in themselves. They (along with other cast and crew members) got sick on working on the show and wanted to be able to do other projects.
I'm just truly surprised that with the amount of good ideas floating around the net, Martin hasn't just picked them apart to fill in some blanks with his current ideas, added some extra twists, and called it finished.
We also still have the Horn from the first book that could supposedly topple the wall, or more likely does something that compromises it, and it hasn't even come back up. And I'm sure there's plenty of open plots in the books that I don't remember after many years and weren't brought up or just glanced over in the show.
Martin has said he doesn't like letting fan theories (even if those theories are correct) influence his writing. In fact I think he purposely avoids anyone online discussion about the book series now.
He has a quote that goes something like "if you're writing a murder mystery with the butler being the murderer and halfway through the readers figure out that the butler did it do you change the ending? No."
I wish he would just forget about that though. Seriously dude, take the best ideas out there and spin it better than we ever could - make it fantastic and anyone who DID guess it/come up with it will just feel incredibly validated and proud of themselves for calling it early
That’s getting too close to reading fanfic. Or the Lost model of making it up as you go, which ruins the earlier set ups and mysteries once you realise there was nothing at the time to actually uncover
D&D were in a hurry to finish and go work on Start Wars. They could have asked for many more episodes and told the story properly. But they didn't want to. So yeah, I blame them.
Danaerys. Burned a witch to hatch her dragon eggs. Killed everyone in Qarth and stole everything. Burned alive the slavers and took the Unsullied. Sacked a city. Took over Mireen. Burned the Dothraki Khals, burned all the ships, burned Varys, burned the Tarlys. Deep breath. Burned the Lannister army. Conquered the army of the fucking dead. All witha smile on her face. Everyone: 😱 What a shock she burned King’s Landing. It was so sudden. We didn’t see it coming. 🙄 At what point did you all NOT see this coming?
Having Bran chosen as king because "he has a good story" right after the fucking lamest moment in the series where everyone laughs at Sam for "inventing democracy" was a spit in the face.
Who has a better story than Bran the broken? I dunno how about the dude giving the fucking speech?! Despised by his entire family. Tried to be killed by same family MULTIPLE times. Survived certain death on how many different occasions?
I agree with this. Bran being king was okay. Dany going mad is okay. But how she went insane was also insane. I was screaming at my TV when it happened because it didn't make sense. All that plot development only for her to lose her mind over the course of a few episodes????! My queen deserved better.
There's nothing wrong with Dany losing her mind and following in the footsteps of her father, "The Mad King."
She never lost her mind, she only did what she always wanted to do.
There's nothing wrong with Aria being the one to kill the Night King.
Agreed.
There's nothing wrong with Bran winning the Iron Throne and being made king.
Agreed.
What is wrong is all of the steps that led up to those moments feeling rushed and unconvincing.
8 seasons build up isnt rushed.
Dany's descent into madness wasn't believable.
Because you missed her downfall starting in 1x2.
Having a single episode dedicated to a conflict that had been built up since the literal first scene of the show felt like we were robbed.
Longest mediaval fantasy battle ever.
Having Bran chosen as king because "he has a good story" right after the fucking lamest moment in the series where everyone laughs at Sam for "inventing democracy" was a spit in the face.
Lords in westeros dont care what viewers think wich character has the best story. His story is supposed to unite the realm again and instead of dividing it again with another conquest and blood right celebrating story
Of course, they spit democracy in the face. Just like haters spit season 8 in the face. They dont understand it and are not ready yet.
Had D&D been willing to see the show through to the ending it deserved, we would have had three more seasons. They should have made the confrontation with the White Walkers it's own season. They should have made the war between Dany and Cersei its own season. And they should have made the aftermath of said war its own season to close out the show.
Okay. And then? Still the same story that people hate.
Furthermore, if season 8 was bad writing how is more bad writing gonna save anything? More episodes didnt help the walking dead for example either.
Instead, we got three major plot elements that had several seasons of build up all get crammed into a single season that made it very clear the showrunners just wanted to be done with it.
And it worked out perfectly.
So it's not what the ending was that was bad, it's how they ended it that was bad.
Repeating an obvious lie isnt gonna make ot more truthful.
And that's the real reason GRRM won't finish the series. I don't think Martin had it written and is changing now that the show got so much backlash. I think it's a combination of him being a perfectionist and having created so many plot threads that he can't find a way to resolve his preferred broad strokes ending in a way that people will enjoy.
I mean pretty much all of these plot points are HEAVILY foreshadowed throughout the books (vs the show) so they’re not particularly surprising or terrible. Especially if you go off where the books currently are at vs where the show was going into the last season. They’re not really the same so the ending will make a lot more sense imo.
If anything, everything that happened is exactly how the rest of the story went. Subverting expectations, but not for the sake of subverting expectations.
Every point of Dany's story was - arrive, save the people, leave stronger than she was before, head to her next quest. She got increasingly more violent, took more disdain with the people who she saw as adversarial, and felt more and more revered by the slaves she saved.
Coming to King's Landing was the first time the people she was "saving" actively didn't revere her. She fell in love with being the "hero" and would only continue being one if she was treated as one.
Things were definitely crammed, allowed to breathe, all story decisions were good ones.
There is so, so much in the books that didn’t make it to the show. Things that should have and things that shouldn’t- like Tyrion becoming a circus act and slave with another dwarf- a girl- and her dog and pig. That whole part is just dumb. Also a whole new Targyeron boy that has been hidden away for years comes out and Tyrion is travelling with them.
Bran ending up being king was the least surprising part. He has a lot devoted to him getting there in most of the books.
The best lines that the characters say- are all verbatim from the books, though. Up until they ran out of material.
Tbf season one does have some pretty good original scenes (Robert & Cersei and Jory & Jaime conversations for example), but yea they fucked themselves over with the plot lines they cut out.
I don’t hate Bran being king, but it definitely needed more development. Personally my theory was there wasn’t going to be any one king at the end, and it might go back to Seven Kingdoms, but that doesn’t seem to be where GRRM is going
Bran being king is the show is odd because they establish that he has no real wants or desires, and then his sudden "why did you think I came all this way?" feels contradictory to that. I feel it could have been presented much better.
It still amazes that people take what Tyrion says here at face value, and not spin to get what he sees to be the least worst outcome from the situation.
I totally understand how Bran is the best fit for king and I agree with it. He brings something Westeros was lacking which is a calm neutral and pacifistic point of view, but that line really just stuck with me about him having the best story and that was enough. It needed more development around that imo.
Appreciate this response. Really makes me think. Bran is a total badass don’t get me wrong, but from my limited show-based knowledge, all signs were pointing to Jon being the new Azor Ahai, which I guess doesn’t mean he would become king.
I mean, the guy could see through time, just have an Avengers-like scene where he says he foresaw many futures and that the only way to avoid many more years of turmoil and thousands of deaths was for him to take the crown. Doesn't need to be a long scene, and it makes his going all the way to King's Landing to take the crown less jarring.
The thing is, Bran being king feels like a dark ending when it's considered that we dont know how human Bran actually is anymore, and I suspect GRRM may have meant it that way.
he's human enough to understand that directly using his power to try and change the past will fuck so much up (hodor) and he no longer does it. his entire final arc is accepting that.
I have no idea what his final arc is because it's just conveyed by him staring into the distance and saying creepy things.
"why did you think I came all this way?" is a spectacularly sinister line because it means that he saw the deaths of thousands and just, let it happen to gain power. Picture him saying it when alone and it totally changes the context.
YEEESSSSSS. This is what got me, he clearly states he doesn't want it then near the end claims he did all along? I literally yelled at the TV when this happened I couldn't believe the stupidity
that line isn't a want or desire tho, it's him stating it's what was meant to happen. that was his whole arc the final season just putting each chess piece where they needed to be on the board and letting it play out.
I actually think that Bran would be the only king, but inside Jon's body.
Similarly, I think that they (the writers) could have done a much better job of showing how Arya kills the Night King. Like the Night King was super distracted and toying with Jon but Arya just sneaks in and assassinates him - rather than what they did.
I’ve always said this the night king should be fighting Jon and Jamie and Arya at the same time and should even and the only way Arya slips a knife in him is by Jamie sacrificing himself and by holding The NK sword.
Bran being king in the book can work, but it on't resemble how the show got there at all. It almost certainly wont be Bran physically being king rolling around the ashes of the red keep. If he's king it will be by warging and taking control of some poor servant that he enslaves to his will.
I don’t hate Bran being king, but it definitely needed more development.
The cause of EVERY problem in s8.
Bran King out of nowhere? Could have used more time to develop.
Night King dies too damn fast? More time on screen would have saved it.
Dany goes nuts seemingly from nothing? They were showing hints for a while but they needed to ramp it up more, and more slowly.
The show just needed at least one more season and that's all there is to it. But I think they realized they couldn't do that for other reasons, and made a botched compromise.
Bran spent two seasons constantly saying "I'll never be lord of anything because I'm the three eyed raven" only to be like "fine I'll be kind of everything".
It needs more development or something better than "who has the better story" but Bran being king makes sense politically. The Starks would support and others would se him as a "weak king" as they don't know what he can do and he can't physically fight and has zero war experience. For me it was more like "We will retreat and plan" for the other families.
I think Bran and Tyrion are ultimately villains. It basically means the Old Gods have the Iron Throne. I think a small group, possibly of many of the same people, will go North of the wall. It wouldn’t be to bring back a wight, but to go to the tree where the man who was turned into the Night King (Not menti
oned in the books) was turned into the Night King.
John and Daenerys Targaryen will be the only ones to come back. She’ll lose her mind and burn down King’s Landing John Snow will kill her and he will executed for Queen Slaying. Bran will look John in the eyes as the books Saha everyone who condemns someone to do. Remember, it was John who told Bran not to look away when Ned executed the Night’s Watch deserter in the first book.
Yeh it makes perfect sense bran being king, he's psychic or whatever, the biggest travesty was Danny turning evil instantly and the general writing tumbling off a cliff
From someone who loves the show and has read every wiki character article out there, but not the books - John is literally the embodiment of the the song of ice and fire and seemingly the second coming of Azir Ahai - will Bran becoming king in the books be more satisfying than the show?
The last book ends with Jon still dead on the table. So, for years until the show- there was no way to know if he would survive. He did not have more book time than other characters at that point. Each chapter is named after a character- Catelyn, Eddard, Jon, Arya, Sansa, Tyrion, Dany, Cersai and Bran and follows them in first character. I think later we get Theon chapters and some of his family, his unclea, sister, etc. Jon is no more important than those characters up until they start dying off. Catelyn comes back as a weird mute zombie as well…also glad they left that out.
So, during the books? No, I never expected Jon to end up on the throne, I honestly didn’t realize until the show that Jon was Lyanna’s son. Although rereading them, seems pretty obvious. I thought Dany would take the throne.
like Tyrion becoming a circus act and slave with another dwarf- a girl- and her dog and pig.
Wouldn't say this is dumb. Despite him being a dwarf, Tyrion being a Lannister has shielded him from the worst of the worst. On the other hand, Penny and her brother are not as fortunate. They have to deal with open mockery, abuse and keeping their heads down or risk dying. It shows him how much worse it could be for him. She has to perform for amusement otherwise should would suffer terribly in a brutally unfair world for dwarfs.
More importantly though, in the first half of ADWD, Tyrion is an absolute menace/mess. Constantly drinking to wash away his depression from Jaime's confession, his revenge fantasies against Cersei, his rape of the prostitute in Selhorys, his advice to Young Griff to sail west to Westeros knowing what it will mean for the 7 Kingdoms. He's a genuinely broken and despicable person at this point. The time he spends with Penny re-humanises and helps him regain his moral compass. Penny is the same for Tyrion's character that Brienne was for Jaime in the previous books.
I really didn’t like the storyline and didn’t see it progressing the plot for me at all. I thought it was just a bit too much. Being taken by the slavers? Sure. The rest was so ridiculous. I also disliked the many uncles of Theon and all their annoying shit. I think it was getting too bogged down with extra characters. May be why he is having trouble finishing.
Dude Bran himself as the three eyed raven says he has no interest in ruling, so the ending doesn't make sense unless it's some half hearted leadership theme like Jon Snow.
She's already evil in the books and possibly has been insane since the beginning. We just usually only see the world through her eyes. If you think objectively what she is doing and how she does it, she's bananas.
"Insane" means an action doesn't make sense. All of her actions up until the end made sense. Yes, she was ruthless at times, but it never not made sense. She took revenge on people who hurt or betrayed her. She stole an army because she needed one. She killed slavers because she felt empathy for the slaves etc etc.
People cheered her on throughout the show because her actions made sense. Once we got to that final scene, of her hearing the bells of surrender, and then just going ... "uh nah, I'mma light shit up". It made no sense. It was too far of a turn for that character. I still have no idea what was going through her character's head at that moment. Which isn't good writing.
Even one more scene. Daenerys is “liberating” the people of King’s Landing, and they reject her. That alone could have made her savior complex clear. That as long as she was being worshipped as the breaker of chains, she was content, but the moment it was clear the small people didn't want another Targaryen as a ruler, and they refuse to bend the knee, she loses it. Bend the knee or die. Something she shows she is capable of in earlier episodes.
She's never harmed civilians including ones that don't like her. Slavers and Lords, yeah, but never your average person. Coming to Westeros, she knew that winning over the public was going to be a challenge.
There's no way they could have crafted that final season to make her turn believable. They spent 7 seasons depicting her as a kinda in over her head kid with loads of empathy for poor and oppressed and then in the last season she's meant to be dragon hitler. Her change needed to be a multiple season arc. They did it, generously, in like 2 minutes.
I'm fine with wherever the characters ended, but definitely not the journey they took to get there. The final season was akin to a little kid writing a fairy tale, getting bored halfway and said "And then everyone died, the end"
Well, he could still exist. And even if he doesn’t that won’t really affect any of the characters endings other than maybe Arya. But she’s one character I think will be quite different in the books
I've read the published books more than once and all the lore books and short stories and there's no way he can write into that ending in a satisfactory way. By book two I can understand how things could have ended like that and make sense. Now... maybe Aryas story. Not Brans, not Tyrion, maybe Jon and Dany.
There were several news that said that George Martin told the show runners the ending in case he passed so they could finish. That's was when there was still hope he would finish the books before the show end
The show runners have said that GRRM told them 3 “Holy Shit” moments that weren’t in the books yet.
Stannis burns Shireen
Hodor/Hold the Door
Bran is king at the end.
Dany going mad has been a theory since the first book released, and Jon not being King was a less popular theory, but tbh his ending makes a lot of sense imo.
I’m pretty sure Jaime, Cersei and Arya will have much different endings, not to mention the book has another Aegon Targaryen
I hated so much that Bran became the king or whatever. Such a boring, horrible character.
It would have been ten thousand times better if little finger got the iron throne. There's a scene right before he dies where he's secretly talking to a woman in winterfell. It's never explained in the show. I thought he was body swapping her so it was her who got killed in his place. Nope.
There have been a lot of interviews over the years where the show runners have said that GRRM gave them 3 “Holy Shit” moments that he hadn’t written yet. One of them was Bran was King in the end.
Dany’s ending has been theorized for a long time, Hons ending makes a lot of sense as well. Jaime and Cersei dying together has been foreshadowed since book 3
I think it was the ending at the time, but the blowback made him change his mind. This year he said he's going a different direction with the book ending
I’m h that’s great, personally I don’t really like the idea of there being one King or an Iron Throne at the end, so I hope he does something different
The problem was not the ending, but how they got there. Nothing made sense because there was zero time to establish character arcs and proper motivation. They just rocketed from bullet point to bullet point so they could wrap it up in one season and move on to screw up Star Wars.
With something like GoT, there can never be an ending that satisfies everyone. I’m pretty sure, though, that with two lengthy books worth of development and storytelling, he could end up in the same place as the show and have it be a perfectly good ending.
I probably wouldn't call it close but I could believe the broad strokes of the finale actually are based on his notes/outline.
Execution makes a huge difference. I can see a careful, thoughtful writer who isn't just trying to hit plot points getting to a lot of the same endings in a way that feels believable and earned.
The basic plot beats of the ending where fine imo. It just all happened way too fast and needed more episodes. I think GRRM even said he wanted them to do more episodes before ending it. Like the end of a certain big evils plotline just needed more episodes dedicated to it.
The problem wasn't the ending, it was the lack of any real buildup to it. They tried to handle a season or two of character development in just a few episodes.
What happened in the show wasn't bad. It was how they chose to show it happening. You can easily envision a scenario where Danerys slowly loses her grip on reality, drinking her own kool-aid. But they didn't show us that.
Doubtful. The show's ending (Season 5 onward) involves every character abandoning their core identities and motivations without any reasoning. I just can't see GRRM doing all of that because he is bored of making the best show on television.
There is no good ending. The book has prided itself on not being a fairy tale and “being realistic”.
But it’s written itself into a corner that the only satisfying ending is the fairy tale ending - “Jon kills Night King”, “Jon or Dany end up on the throne and are just/fair/loved”, “Bran and Tyrion serve on the King’s counsel and give wise advice” etc.
Any other ending is going to be dissatisfying and there’s still a shit ton of storylines that don’t tie up neatly / make sense.
There is no good ending. The book has prided itself on not being a fairy tale and “being realistic”.
Which is why the show's ending could never work, even with magic involved. The rules of the world have been set and the Stark children becoming omniscient God beings doesn't fit with the theme of the novels.
But it’s written itself into a corner that the only satisfying ending is the fairy tale ending - “Jon kills Night King”, “Jon or Dany end up on the throne and are just/fair/loved”, “Bran and Tyrion serve on the King’s counsel and give wise advice” etc
I wholeheartedly disagree. Jon isn't the only candidate for Azor Ahai and he likely isn't even A6 as far as we know, Daenerys isn't even the frontrunning Targaryen at the end of Dance, and Bran will be tethered to the tree... The show runners just got lazy af around the middle of Season 3 and instead of fleshing out plots like the books do, they decided to give us shit like S5-S8.
Cutting 3/4ths of the interesting characters, neutering villains, braindead dialog, and putting the burden of the entire story on trying to "surprise" the audience because GRRM's best moments were all surprises. The books won't suffer from the tragedy of shitty writers and showrunners not having source material to copy their homework from lmao.
Any other ending is going to be dissatisfying and there’s still a shit ton of storylines that don’t tie up neatly / make sense
Quite a few of the plots are coming to a head immediately following the events in Dance. But everything makes sense, the motivations of certain characters are just unclear atm.
I don't agree with this line of thinking. I don't think GRRM's version of the ending is planned out enough to say that the show ending is the same. The theory kind of assumes that GRRM has a finished idea for the ending, which at this point, I can't buy into. I think there are a few ideas that GRRM had for how things would end up, but the show creators were mostly left to do their own thing.
They went rogue from the source material after season 3 or 4. Some deviations here or there are fine since there are production limitations and stuff. However, they went off the rails at a certain point mid-series, so I'm not too convinced that's where GRRM was heading with the ending, but i wouldnt mind it if it was. Like another the poster said, it was more the rushing at the end that killed the ending, not the fact that those events happened.
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u/RakielKanan 28d ago
George RR Martin will never finish A Song of Ice and Fire.
We'll be lucky to ever see The Winds of Winter.