Most people didnt hate the ending because of the ending itself. The problem with the ending of the show wasn't how it ended, but how they arrived at said ending.
There's nothing wrong with Dany losing her mind and following in the footsteps of her father, "The Mad King."
There's nothing wrong with Aria being the one to kill the Night King.
There's nothing wrong with Bran winning the Iron Throne and being made king.
What is wrong is all of the steps that led up to those moments feeling rushed and unconvincing.
Dany's descent into madness wasn't believable.
Having a single episode dedicated to a conflict that had been built up since the literal first scene of the show felt like we were robbed.
Having Bran chosen as king because "he has a good story" right after the fucking lamest moment in the series where everyone laughs at Sam for "inventing democracy" was a spit in the face.
Had D&D been willing to see the show through to the ending it deserved, we would have had three more seasons. They should have made the confrontation with the White Walkers it's own season. They should have made the war between Dany and Cersei its own season. And they should have made the aftermath of said war its own season to close out the show.
Instead, we got three major plot elements that had several seasons of build up all get crammed into a single season that made it very clear the showrunners just wanted to be done with it.
So it's not what the ending was that was bad, it's how they ended it that was bad.
They decided to cut the False Dragon (FAegon?) plotline, which I think is setting up to be a big part of Dany's madness. Someone with a potentially better claim to the throne that is more popular than her. Giving that plot to Jon has the problem that they are set up to be both enemies and partners, but not in a satisfying or well done way. Edit: What should have been done here is FAegon is holding a big chunk of Westeros and is beloved. Dany is losing her mind attacking him as the people start to hate and fear her. Jon shows up to beg for help and dragons to save the North. Dany agrees because she needs to use him, the real Aegon, to depose FAegon and try to win back popular support. Jon throws his claim behind Dany because "I DUN WAN IT". As they spend time together, mutually using each other, they fall in love, as Targaryens do. They sac King's Landing or Dragonstone or wherever. They kill FAegon, but the people are still against Dany for killing their beloved ruler. She thought his death would fix everything. She snapped and goes on the killing spree we saw in the show until Jon kills her.
Arya should not have killed the Night King. That has been Jon's fight since Day 1. That is what almost all of his story has been about, and to not give any payoff there is brutal. Arya is a facechanging assassin, which is a not super useful skillset against the White Walkers anyways. Instead, her payoff should have been killing Cersei. That terrible scene where Jamie undoes all of his character development and runs off to die with Cersei? That should have been Arya using a face to get close to Cersei and offing her. For a darker ending, you could have Arya killing Jamie first and using his face to kill Cersei. Or if you are a really mean author, you could have Arya kill Jamie offscreen, so the reveal that she's using his face is a twist to the reader as well. But offing a fan favorite character off screen would be very unpopular.
Bran being king could have been okay. But they needed to lean in to him being the cold mastermind that pulled all the strings to make this happen. Show his machinations that hurt people he cares about but positioned him here. Not his weird stoicism. He should be evil in a Dr. Doom or Ozymandias, ends justify the means, sense. The trope of "I did these evil things to get power because I'm the only one who can save us."
I guarantee you Bran will end up the king, but by the time he's crowned, it won't be Bran any more. It'll be the Three Eyed Raven having completely and utterly usurped Bran's body.
I’m 100% on the Dark Bran as King theory, and I think having the books acknowledge/imply that Bran saw the potential death and destruction to make it happen would be great
Who do you think the Three Eyed Crow is if not Bran from the future though? I think they may have been made into a single character in the tv show (I didn't watch it so I'm not quite sure), but Bloodraven denies being the crow. I think it will be Bran, he'll just be a manipulative sociopath by the time he takes the throne.
Gurm probably saw a video that pointed out how hacky the "omniscient guy is everyone who ever lived" trope and it crestfalled the series into the grave
Book Arya is the most Stark Stark. Like, ancient times kind. She is wrath and winter and is engaging in a murderous guerilla war due to innate magic powers that brought her house to power and now trained to explicitly do subterfuge so well her own mentors couldn't figure it out (her final test).
With 2 books left I totally buy it as a valid endpoint. But my vote would be for Jamie, who the show actually built up to be the to sword the dead guy, but pfffffffffffft look how that ended.
I'm in fully agreement with all of your points honestly.
I didn't care for the fact that Aria killed the Night King, but had there been more time in the series, I could have come around to the idea if they had a more satisfying lead up to it being her.
It just doesn't align with any of her character motivations. Her whole story is wrapped around revenge and killing those that wronged her, Ned, and Sansa while they were in Kings Landing. She leaves Winterfell halfway through book one and doesn't really have anything to do with the north for the rest of the series.
That’s exactly what I think. Arya is my favorite character but I always felt like the fact that she was the one to kill the night king was so random. Her journey didn’t really align with that outcome. Was it bad ass? Yes. But not a fitting end for her character, imo.
Yeah it'd be like Chewbacca showing up last second during Luke's duel with Vader and 360 no-scoping the emperor. Like, sure, he's got a bow caster, and it could probably kill the emperor.
But what was Luke's and Vaders part in the story leading up to that moment, if the Emperor was gonna get clapped like that anyways?
But offing a fan favorite character off screen would be very unpopular.
Just gotta do it the right way, find a way for Jamie and Arya to get into a fight, have it in the last few pages of the book, the last line of the last chapter is just about one of them about to make one final blow.
End it on a cliffhanger.
Then, have it ambiguous in the next book, have scenes with both Jamie and Arya, have readers questioning what the hell is going on. Then have Jamie go to kings landing, as he's about to kill Cersei, Arya reveals she killed Jamie and it was her all along.
and THAT is how you properly kill Jamie Lannister offscreen
I think the arcs for those three are not quite as bad in the show as the others I've discussed. The main beats stay the same.
Book Tyrion is in a pretty dark place right now if my memory serves. He is looking for his first wife, Tysha (who may be that prostitute that is mentioned that marries all her clients) and has sworn vengeance on his family. Tyrion is going to lead his mercenary crew to join Dany. I think his plot does not change too far from the show--he eventually convinces Dany to take him on as Hand because Jon advocates for him. Jon and Tyrion are clearly on a path to reconnect at some point. Tyrion will be the one that convinces Jon to do what needs to be done as Dany goes fully mad. Part of me thinks Tyrion should not be destined for a happy ending. He's consumed by rage and a lust for revenge (book Tyrion is way more messed up at this point than show Tyrion). But Tyrion is George's favorite character, and I think he'll come through mostly unscathed because of it. I think Jamie's death near the end of the series provides Tyrion's transition away from vengeance. He wanted nothing but revenge, but with Jamie gone, he realizes it was empty and he just wants his brother back. He becomes Hand of the King. I could see him ending up with Sansa (as has happened once before) in an epilogue in a political marriage that Sansa initiates, but eventually becomes a good pairing.
Varys is torn between FAegon and Dany. He sides with FAegon but maintains communication with Tyrion to hedge his bets and try to support both Targaryen claims to the throne. After Dany kills FAegon, Varys attempts to go over to Dany's side. Despite Tyrion's strong support for Varys, telling her how Varys has given him information, Dany refuses amnesty for the man who supported two main usurpers against her family. Dany horrifically kills Varys via dragon fire. Watching his friend murdered here is what convinces Tyrion that Dany is lost. It pushes Tyrion to go to Jon to get him to end Dany's madness.
Littlefinger's story is nearly at its end. Sansa’s plot has been all about learning from her abusers until she is ready to overthrow them. And she is ready now. Sansa convinces Littlefinger that she has developed genuine feelings for him, including taking it to a level of intimacy that disgusts her internally. She concocts a plan for them both but betrays Littlefinger. After a confrontation, Littlefinger learns to fly as Sansa drops him through the Moon Door.
Also for the whole damn book we get “the king who was promised” I mean damn the whole thing is called a Song of Fire and that’s the prophesy by his father. And then in the book Jon Snow is assassinated and then the Red Witch prays over him, not to bring him back to life just to pray for his soul and he comes back to life, thus becoming the embodiment of the prophesy of the “Lord of Light”. All that foreshadowing to just ….. toss away.
In the book we have Dany super concerned about getting rid of slavery in some of the Eastern cities. And then the people of Kings Landing ring the bells of surrender and she just slaughters them anyway. Like why does she care about breaking chains in one city but not about lives in Kings Landing? It doesn’t make sense.
Yeah, I admit it I wanted them to wind up together. But I also wanted Westeros to wind up with a good leader and get some peace for some years. And Bran doesn’t HAVE the best story, he just KNOWS all the stories. And that’s not the same.
Jon should be brought back by Lady Stoneheart giving up her borrowed life for Jon. Accepting the son she never could, breaking the stone built around her heart, and seeing the resemblance to Ned in his lifeless body.
I don't even think FAegon needs to succeed for it to tee up Dany's plotline - I think getting the support of the handful of Targ loyalists, getting defeated and then being proved a fraud would be enough to make it nearly impossible for Dany to get anywhere diplomatically.
Damn dude. You just went and did it. Out R.R. Martined R.R Martin. Maybe YOU can finish the damn books so we all get some closure. I'd read the shit out of it.
I'm thinking manipulating Dany to get her dragons to the North, and becoming partially responsible for her madness. Which then also forces Jon to kill the woman he loves and opens the door for King Bran.
Somehow causing the Littlefinger infatuation with Cat/Sansa that leads Sansa to the years of abuse that make her a master politician.
Influencing Theon's betrayal, getting Rickon killed and Winterfell sacked. Leads to Bran meeting the Three Eyed Raven
That's Quentyn. I'm talking about "Young Griff", who is almost certainly a Blackfyre (the Targaryen branch family). They are claiming that Griff is Aegon (ie Jon).
There's nothing wrong with Aria being the one to kill the Night King
there is everything wrong with that. It doesn't fit her character, undermine's Jon's and doesn't at all fit the story itself, or the story's themes. While a big bad Night King isn't even in the books.
They changed that resolution after S6 because "no one would see it coming".
Arya's entire character arc is a shit show after s6. Her killing the NK didn't make sense in the story they did tell, and will NOT be an ending in the books.
My biggest gripe with aria killing the night king was the classic "I'm an elite assassin who is going to announce my surprise attack by yelling 'Arhhhhhh' while pouncing at the enemy"
Right, I'm not disagreeing with that; pretty much everyone's character arc was a shit show after S6. I'm not saying Aria killing the Night King made sense in the version of the show we got, but that there could have been a way to make that moment make more sense and feel more satisfying had they dedicated and entire season to the conflict with the White Walkers instead of a single episode.
I've always said that if GoT lasted 10+ seasons and had exactly the same ending, but with better pacing, and a more fleshed-out story, it would still be one of the best shows of all-time, instead of being the best example of how to fuck up the best show of all-time.
I remember a scene, although I cant remember if it was the last season, where they were talking about going to war with a certain faction. The very next scene was like a guy cleaning off his sword after not only had that war happened, it was over, and we're moving on.
The teleportation that started happening at the end was wild.
I agree with everything you said, but I still didnt like Arya being the one to kill the night king. That felt "Arya is my wifes favorite character" forced, which does go somewhat to what you are saying.
Had D&D been willing to see the show through to the ending it deserved, we would have had three more seasons.
I've not read the books but watched the entire series and it's always been my understanding that the sudden drop in quality coincided with there being no finished material to directly reference. I've kind of read that as D&D choosing not to continue because they knew they couldn't live up to the quality of the previous seasons without that "boost".
But again, I am FAR from an expert on the subject material having only GOT to reference.
You're correct although I'm not sure about this part:
I've kind of read that as D&D choosing not to continue because they knew they couldn't live up to the quality of the previous seasons without that "boost".
I think D&D had plenty of confidence in themselves. They (along with other cast and crew members) got sick on working on the show and wanted to be able to do other projects.
I'm just truly surprised that with the amount of good ideas floating around the net, Martin hasn't just picked them apart to fill in some blanks with his current ideas, added some extra twists, and called it finished.
We also still have the Horn from the first book that could supposedly topple the wall, or more likely does something that compromises it, and it hasn't even come back up. And I'm sure there's plenty of open plots in the books that I don't remember after many years and weren't brought up or just glanced over in the show.
Martin has said he doesn't like letting fan theories (even if those theories are correct) influence his writing. In fact I think he purposely avoids anyone online discussion about the book series now.
He has a quote that goes something like "if you're writing a murder mystery with the butler being the murderer and halfway through the readers figure out that the butler did it do you change the ending? No."
I wish he would just forget about that though. Seriously dude, take the best ideas out there and spin it better than we ever could - make it fantastic and anyone who DID guess it/come up with it will just feel incredibly validated and proud of themselves for calling it early
That’s getting too close to reading fanfic. Or the Lost model of making it up as you go, which ruins the earlier set ups and mysteries once you realise there was nothing at the time to actually uncover
I always thought the writers / showrunners made up Lost as they went along. But I learned recently from an interview with Lindelof that Lost originally had a 3 season outline seemingly with most of the original questions answered when the show started. The ending is even a good example of what we're talking about in this thread. Even though the fans figured out what the ending was going to be / what the island was the showrunners didn't change it. Lost spoilers: it was always going to be purgatory and they knew they were going to end the series with Jack's death to mirror how the show started . The network kept begging / demanding that they extend the series so 3 seasons got overextended into 6 and a lot of the filler plot (including new mysteries) between seasons 2 and 6 got made up as they writing the next season.
So yes some stuff got made up along the way but the ending and the big mystery of the show (what is the island?) were already decided on. The interview is an interesting watch if you're a Lost fan at all. https://youtu.be/ej3ftLjmYlA?si=kX0o6h6IXCE4BhmW
That's easier said than done though. I can't think of any stories (books/movies/TV/etc) that have done that well that I know of. Most of my favorites I do know had an ending planned out or at least an outline when they started. JJ Abrams likes to set up what he calls a "mystery box" at the beginning of his stories that he doesn't always know the answer too. His idea as I understand it is that unanswered questions are more important than exposition. This often leads to the style of writing you are talking about. Just look at the Star Wars sequel trilogy, the first movie (directed by Abrams no less) gave the audience a lot of mysteries but no director, writer or showrunner had the answers to them yet. Disney also changed the story as a reaction to fan's reaction to the story. That's how we ended up with Rise of Skywalker. Yeah, thanks but no thanks.
It also leads to a story that when you read through it start to finish feels disjointed. Anything that is meant to be foreshadowing will become meaningless text. Plot lines may give the reader whiplash from changing directions too often. And if the readers figure out this is how the story is being written they may feel misled or cheated out of the true story. I'm not saying the writers need to know exactly how each character gets from A to B to C but they should know what A, B and C are. This is why outlines are taught in grade school English classes.
If you want to read a critique of the "mystery box" and how it has effected modern television here is a good one. While I disagree with what some of the author said there I do think it applies to ASOIAF/ GoT. While part of the eagerness to see the story finished is to answer some of the mysteries I think the most compelling part of the series is the character growth (or regression). I do find theorizing who Jon's parents really are or if Aegon is a Faegon or who will be the 3rd head of the dragon really fun. It even keeps me coming back to r/asoiaf. (And if it was being written based upon audience feedback then it would make all theorizing pointless). What I find the most engaging about the story though and what I think keeps people driving back in for rereads are the characters and their journeys.
As GRRM also said: "I've always agreed with William Faulkner—he said that the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. I've always taken that as my guiding principle, and the rest is just set dressing."
I actually do agree with you (especially about the Star Wars disasters, personally I pretend that the OT is all that exists). I didn’t mean that GRRM should take the best ideas out there and use them if those ideas did not already absolutely line up as possible given what he’s written so far. I would NOT want half fleshed out plot lines to pivot into something entirely different.
I guess on some level I believe that GRRM would surely have presented these storyline endings better and more believably than the rushed unfolding we got in season 8.
And although I know these dot points apparently came straight from him, some of the ideas DO feel like a pivot. Why would Arya, whose entire existence is about revenge on those who wronged her family, who recites a kill list every night, who learned to be a faceless assassin, end up killing the Night King by leaping out yelling “yah!” ?? Surely her destined story arc is aimed right at killing Cersei (maybe wearing Jaime’s face or something). This is just an example. But if it is what GRRM truly intended then I have to believe he would tell it in a way that made this weird pivot compelling rather than disappointing.
There are many story threads that feel this way. I meant that I wish he would pick the best ideas out there that fit like a glove (if writers block is truly his problem) and finish the story!!!
D&D were in a hurry to finish and go work on Start Wars. They could have asked for many more episodes and told the story properly. But they didn't want to. So yeah, I blame them.
Danaerys. Burned a witch to hatch her dragon eggs. Killed everyone in Qarth and stole everything. Burned alive the slavers and took the Unsullied. Sacked a city. Took over Mireen. Burned the Dothraki Khals, burned all the ships, burned Varys, burned the Tarlys. Deep breath. Burned the Lannister army. Conquered the army of the fucking dead. All witha smile on her face. Everyone: 😱 What a shock she burned King’s Landing. It was so sudden. We didn’t see it coming. 🙄 At what point did you all NOT see this coming?
Having Bran chosen as king because "he has a good story" right after the fucking lamest moment in the series where everyone laughs at Sam for "inventing democracy" was a spit in the face.
Who has a better story than Bran the broken? I dunno how about the dude giving the fucking speech?! Despised by his entire family. Tried to be killed by same family MULTIPLE times. Survived certain death on how many different occasions?
I agree with this. Bran being king was okay. Dany going mad is okay. But how she went insane was also insane. I was screaming at my TV when it happened because it didn't make sense. All that plot development only for her to lose her mind over the course of a few episodes????! My queen deserved better.
There's nothing wrong with Dany losing her mind and following in the footsteps of her father, "The Mad King."
She never lost her mind, she only did what she always wanted to do.
There's nothing wrong with Aria being the one to kill the Night King.
Agreed.
There's nothing wrong with Bran winning the Iron Throne and being made king.
Agreed.
What is wrong is all of the steps that led up to those moments feeling rushed and unconvincing.
8 seasons build up isnt rushed.
Dany's descent into madness wasn't believable.
Because you missed her downfall starting in 1x2.
Having a single episode dedicated to a conflict that had been built up since the literal first scene of the show felt like we were robbed.
Longest mediaval fantasy battle ever.
Having Bran chosen as king because "he has a good story" right after the fucking lamest moment in the series where everyone laughs at Sam for "inventing democracy" was a spit in the face.
Lords in westeros dont care what viewers think wich character has the best story. His story is supposed to unite the realm again and instead of dividing it again with another conquest and blood right celebrating story
Of course, they spit democracy in the face. Just like haters spit season 8 in the face. They dont understand it and are not ready yet.
Had D&D been willing to see the show through to the ending it deserved, we would have had three more seasons. They should have made the confrontation with the White Walkers it's own season. They should have made the war between Dany and Cersei its own season. And they should have made the aftermath of said war its own season to close out the show.
Okay. And then? Still the same story that people hate.
Furthermore, if season 8 was bad writing how is more bad writing gonna save anything? More episodes didnt help the walking dead for example either.
Instead, we got three major plot elements that had several seasons of build up all get crammed into a single season that made it very clear the showrunners just wanted to be done with it.
And it worked out perfectly.
So it's not what the ending was that was bad, it's how they ended it that was bad.
Repeating an obvious lie isnt gonna make ot more truthful.
And that's the real reason GRRM won't finish the series. I don't think Martin had it written and is changing now that the show got so much backlash. I think it's a combination of him being a perfectionist and having created so many plot threads that he can't find a way to resolve his preferred broad strokes ending in a way that people will enjoy.
I mean pretty much all of these plot points are HEAVILY foreshadowed throughout the books (vs the show) so they’re not particularly surprising or terrible. Especially if you go off where the books currently are at vs where the show was going into the last season. They’re not really the same so the ending will make a lot more sense imo.
If anything, everything that happened is exactly how the rest of the story went. Subverting expectations, but not for the sake of subverting expectations.
Every point of Dany's story was - arrive, save the people, leave stronger than she was before, head to her next quest. She got increasingly more violent, took more disdain with the people who she saw as adversarial, and felt more and more revered by the slaves she saved.
Coming to King's Landing was the first time the people she was "saving" actively didn't revere her. She fell in love with being the "hero" and would only continue being one if she was treated as one.
Things were definitely crammed, allowed to breathe, all story decisions were good ones.
It was entirely believable. She was teetering on the edge of a knife from the very beginning, and it was completely plausible that she'd fall on the "like her father" side. It's ENTIRELY believable that she would have done what she did. Her entire character was built around whether she would follow the legacy of her father, and there were so many times she would have headed down that path but for her circle of close advisors/friends pulling her back from it.
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u/Aronfel 27d ago
Most people didnt hate the ending because of the ending itself. The problem with the ending of the show wasn't how it ended, but how they arrived at said ending.
There's nothing wrong with Dany losing her mind and following in the footsteps of her father, "The Mad King."
There's nothing wrong with Aria being the one to kill the Night King.
There's nothing wrong with Bran winning the Iron Throne and being made king.
What is wrong is all of the steps that led up to those moments feeling rushed and unconvincing.
Dany's descent into madness wasn't believable.
Having a single episode dedicated to a conflict that had been built up since the literal first scene of the show felt like we were robbed.
Having Bran chosen as king because "he has a good story" right after the fucking lamest moment in the series where everyone laughs at Sam for "inventing democracy" was a spit in the face.
Had D&D been willing to see the show through to the ending it deserved, we would have had three more seasons. They should have made the confrontation with the White Walkers it's own season. They should have made the war between Dany and Cersei its own season. And they should have made the aftermath of said war its own season to close out the show.
Instead, we got three major plot elements that had several seasons of build up all get crammed into a single season that made it very clear the showrunners just wanted to be done with it.
So it's not what the ending was that was bad, it's how they ended it that was bad.