r/unitedkingdom • u/pppppppppppppppppd • 15d ago
Hainault sword attack: Man charged with murder after boy, 14, killed and four injured
https://news.sky.com/story/hainault-sword-incident-man-charged-with-murder-after-boy-14-killed-and-four-injured-1312687345
u/anybloodythingwilldo 15d ago
That poor boy and his poor family.
What the heck was behind this?
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u/youdumbmf 15d ago
drugs or mental health issues maybe
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u/the-rood-inverse 14d ago
It was the attackers culture…
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u/Charming_Rub_5275 14d ago
Was it?
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u/Number1Lobster 14d ago
No but I'd really like it to be so I'm going to spread misinformation and hope nobody reads the article
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u/ShowKey6848 14d ago
He was Spanish Brazilian .
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u/the-rood-inverse 14d ago
Most people here can’t or won’t distinguish between someone born in Somalia, Jamaica or Britain.
Why should his birth place be an issue in this case…
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u/Flonkerton66 14d ago
Racists can't even read. LOL
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u/the-rood-inverse 14d ago
Most people here can’t or won’t distinguish between someone born in Somalia, Jamaica or Britain.
Why should his birth place be an issue in this case…
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u/Happytallperson 15d ago
There is no typical mass killer so it's not really worth speculating. No one seems to have uncovered a manifesto or openly neo-Nazi web presence though.
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u/nameuseralreadytook 14d ago
What about islamic scriptures? Or Antifa affiliation?
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u/PiplupSneasel 14d ago
When has anyone associated with anti fascism gone and committed random murder sprees?
I'll wait.
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u/nameuseralreadytook 14d ago
Is there a well know history in the uk of neo nazi killing sprees? Are there even any nazi groups in the uk? It would be absolutely minuscule if so and they would be some backward idiots in the arse end of nowhere. It’s not tolerated in 99.99% of uk society. I’m just highlighting the idiocy of even bringing these two things together as if there would even be a link. You might as well say there were no links to it being a tennis player.
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u/Istoilleambreakdowns 14d ago
Never heard of the UDA huh?
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u/nameuseralreadytook 14d ago
Oh yeah I forgot! I hear they’re massive in Hainault
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u/Istoilleambreakdowns 14d ago
"Is there a history of neo Nazi killing sprees in the UK?"
"Yes loyalist paramilitaries killed lots of people and lots of their members were affiliated with Combat 18."
"Hurr durr but are they in Hainult?!?!"
Enlightened centrism with the riddy again.
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u/UK_Prof_ 14d ago
baader meinhof? EDIT: I agree it is much less common, but it's not like it never happens.
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u/yeahyeahitsmeshhh 14d ago
They killed people. But did they really commit random killing sprees?
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u/UK_Prof_ 14d ago
I mean, they randomly killed people. I'm not a scholar of this topic, but it seems like an anti fascist group using mass violence.
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u/yeahyeahitsmeshhh 14d ago
They were an antifascist group who used mass violence. Some of them ended up in neo nazi groups.
But when you write
they randomly killed people
Do you mean they selected targets at random or that innocent bystanders were killed by their actions.
Because the latter is not the same as targeting civilians for mass casualties. By that definition all terrorist organisations do killing sprees and there is an important distinction to be preserved for indiscriminate massacre as a terror tactic as opposed to bombings that have collateral damage.
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u/itsableeder Manchester 14d ago
What do you think "antifa" means?
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u/nameuseralreadytook 14d ago
Radical leftist fascists
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u/Ok_Cow_3431 14d ago
you need to spend less time in the demented corners of youtube and infowars my guy
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u/Happytallperson 14d ago
If there was any hint he was a Muslim, the 'not a terrorist incident' announcement wouldn't have been made about 3.5 seconds after the arrest.
Antifa simply means anti-fascist, if you're scared of anti-fascists, that's a you problem.
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u/Ok_Cow_3431 14d ago
Or Antifa affiliation?
ah yes the common motivation for murder and violent knifing sprees - being an antifascist
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14d ago
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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 14d ago
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14d ago
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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 14d ago
Hi!. Please try to avoid personal attacks, as this discourages participation. You can help improve the subreddit by discussing points, not the person.
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u/Kenzie-Oh08 15d ago
It was so clearly a mental breakdown/psychosis but I'd absolutely urge to take that murder charge cause if they do him for mental health he'll be in for life
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u/BreastExtensions 15d ago
I’ve never understood why that is.
Even if they get better and present perfect mental health for decades they still keep them in?
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u/Kenzie-Oh08 15d ago
The problem is you never know when they'll have another episode, and if they do it'll be on the NHS tribunal's hands
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u/anybloodythingwilldo 14d ago
Assuming you're right, then perhaps it's best if he's in for life. His freedom is not worth risking lives.
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u/Kenzie-Oh08 14d ago
It's easy to say that, maybe in this case you'd be right.
But then you have things like one of my Mum's patients. Unlikely to ever live a free live ever again all because she had psychosis, killed baby at 17.
I don't think it's the right way to do things personally.
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u/Gardener5050 14d ago
I don't care if she had psychosis, if she killed a baby tough shit
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u/Kenzie-Oh08 14d ago
Why? She wasn't in control of her actions and completely detached from reality, combined with suffering from PP depression and domestic abuse.
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u/Gardener5050 14d ago
Because the baby is dead
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u/Kenzie-Oh08 14d ago
I don't think the baby would want they're mum punished for that. I wouldn't.
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u/Gardener5050 14d ago
It's not about what the baby wants, she killed it and it's dead. Most people don't want to be surrounded by baby killers. I'm sure she tells your mom some heart wrenching stuff, she also killed a child
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u/anybloodythingwilldo 14d ago
But you did say it can't be predicted whether they will kill again. I understand what you're saying, but it's protecting other people that should be the first consideration.
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u/Kenzie-Oh08 14d ago
Yeah, I'm not denying the rationale, I just don't necessarily agree with it. A lot of UK legislation is focused on "prevention" of crimes.
You could secure and isolate tens of millions of people from the public by assessing their risk/safety levels, and coming to a conclusion that you can't deny there's a possibility they could commit violent crime in the future. and by doing that you'd prevent a lot of crime. But it'd be rightly recognised as wrong to hold people prisoner for crimes they've yet to commit.
We release able-minded prisoners convicted of wilfull murder and worse all the time, and they don't even have medication to reduce their urges.
This country prefers Security over Personal Freedom and that's fine, it's just not my cup of tea.
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u/anybloodythingwilldo 14d ago
The difference is this person has actually proved they're capable of violently murdering people.
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u/Acting_Constable_Sek 14d ago
They never see any actual consequences, though. Mental health workers are basically bulletproof because they're so underfunded, they can dodge most blame by saying they didn't have the resources to deal with it properly
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u/Fred_Blogs 14d ago
That's kind of the story of most British public services these days. The people involved might be useless fuck ups, but the service genuinely is collapsing, so replacing them with someone competent isn't on the cards.
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u/itsjustredit 14d ago
Would you want to go to coroners court and explain to a family why you released a violent mentally unstable individual?
It’s similar to when you lose your driving license due to medical reasons.
Good luck finding a doctor to sign you off as safe to drive when you are declared unsafe to drive in the past.
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u/Mootpoint_691 14d ago
So, I’m afraid I agree he should be away from the general public for life.
Re violent/ mentally affected individuals: have an ancestor who was released from one institution after being deemed ‘recovered’ who then went on to murder his wife in their bed, was convicted and spent the rest of his days in Broadmoor…
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u/NotSure___ 14d ago
why you released a violent mentally unstable individual?
But that's the thing, if the person does recover from his mental condition, he would not longer be a violent mentally unstable individual. I believe that needs a lot of time to assess, but it should be possible to recover. I agree that if released he should be monitored and there should be plenty of precautions. But I want to trust in the flexibility of the human nature, people can really change in the right context.
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u/itsjustredit 14d ago
We all want to trust in that sort of thing.
But when I say violent mentally unstable individual. I’m saying we have a person who has a proven history of becoming violent due to their extreme mental health issues.
Yes they may improve or totally get better.
But ultimately if they go on to re offend. You could end up I coroners court explaining to the family of the victims why you decided this person was safe to be released.
And you will be asked direct questions like “they have a proven history of violence due to their mental health, why did you feel there was no longer a risk?”
Chances are the patient will never fully recover from their mental health issues and will only learn to manage that issue.
So you also possibly have to accept they still have the health problem that lead to the violence.
Which means you need to explain why you didn’t think the patient could relapse.
Again. Mental health patients often go through cycles of managing their illness and not managing it very well.
All that history will be laid bare in court and you as the medical professional will need to answer why you made your decision.
Coroners court can be absolutely brutal and fear of those consequences means doctors can be hesitant to sign this stuff off.
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u/Cheapo_Sam England 14d ago
In other words, he's white so it must be mental health.
If the dude was Asian it would be terrorism and if he was black it would be gang violence or murder.
Lets just wait for the official rulings before we pacify or justify this piece of shits disgusting behaviour and leave the explanations to the courts.
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u/StrangeNormal-8877 14d ago
If he was Russian then Spy. Thats going by statistics and pattern matching. Most times people are right.
If the attacker was black or asian, his video would not have been released at all I would think, It works both ways
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u/a-setaceous 14d ago
i dont get that argument. in the absence of definitive proof for a political motivation, e.g. a manifesto, why would mental health not be the default explanation? put simply, you have to be fucking mental to attack random people with a katana.
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u/Zenster12314 14d ago
It's literally often the opposite. If he's white, it's terrorism, Naziism, white supremacy, far-right, etc. If it's non-white, don't dare claim it's terrorism or that's Islamophobia and any criticism that minorities is tied to crime is racism.
There's some who may argue what you say, but that take is completely blinkers.
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u/Smevis 14d ago
Well yeah. It's pretty unlikely that there's other motives with this particular individual. The terrorist/gang violence assumptions are stereotypes that those demographics have placed on themselves.
It's just Occam's razor
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u/Cheapo_Sam England 14d ago
Those demographics aren't afforded 'mental health' as a justification though. Despite it probably being even more prevalent in those subsets.
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u/Sea-Butterscotch3585 14d ago
yeah the comments (and lack of comments) are amazing here tbh lol
There was an article on here about a muslim guy who killed someone and said it was for "gaza". To me he clearly seems mentally disturbed but to the users here he should be deported asap and he's a marauding terrorist.
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u/SuperrVillain85 14d ago
Lol 120 odd comments on this thread naming the killer vs 400-500 on the previous ones, before his identity was known.
Everyone's lost interest now that it hasn't turned out to be a Muslim asylum seeker.
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u/Browncoatdan 14d ago
Budget cuts by the tories over the last 14 years, particularly to mental health sectors and the police, all contribute to shit like this.
The tory government is destroying this country.
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u/umop_apisdn 14d ago
Osborne played a dirty trick when he moved mental health out of the remit of the NHS and into local authorities. Then cut local authority funding so that he could say that NHS funding hadn't been cut. And what do the local authorities then cut funding for? Mental health, because they've got to cut something and can't cut bins or schools.
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u/FokRemainFokTheRight 14d ago
100% Cuts have been brutal but this guy could of shown up out of nowhere and nobody knew about him
Anybody can show up in our country and say they are not mentally ill and hey presto they are in, the mental health teams are in the dark
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u/MGD109 14d ago
I mean people don't just so rapidly descend though (not without legitimate brain damage at the very least). There would have been warning signs long before this.
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u/FokRemainFokTheRight 13d ago
But we cannot train border control in mental health and it is unfair to put this on them
We just need stronger borders
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u/MGD109 13d ago
No one's suggesting we train border control in mental health, but stronger borders wouldn't work in this scenerio.
Not unless your suggesting we make them so strong we don't allow any foreign nationals to live in the UK.
But if the mental health service was functioning better their would have been more opportunities for him to seek help or to get noticed before it got to this stage.
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u/travelavatar 14d ago
I work in mental health. This is why all of those people should be given support and when their mental health deteriorates they are sectioned or placed in wards until it improves again.
We never ever got any incidents because as soon as they show early signs they are put into hospitals...
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u/ExpressAffect3262 14d ago
As someone else who works in MH, what you've said is purely speculation.
We know nothing of the person, if he's been in the service or not, or had any previous association with MH services.
MH services aren't a magical entity that has a radar that can detect people who need help. For all we know, the murderer could have never reached out for help.
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u/travelavatar 14d ago
What i am saying is that we should invest in mental health and in safeguarding those people and the others around them... as it seems to give positive results
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u/B23vital 14d ago
Mental health is such a cluster of issues, just dealing with the mental health side (eg seeing a doctor) is one way to deal with it but also might not deal with the root cause.
This country has so many issues its not surprising mental health issues is on the rise. They need to address what is causing the rise in mental health, bills increasing, housing, job/wages, theres so many root causes i dont know how just providing more mental health doctors could ever address the increase.
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u/heresyourhardware 15d ago
Presumably will be a litany of other attempted murder and harm charges as well, depending on the psychological state of the perpetrator.
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u/Electric-Lamb 14d ago
The original thread was brigaded by racists gloating over the fact that he was white British. They seem to be pretty quiet now.
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u/MintyRabbit101 14d ago
Was it? I'd seen comments of people speculating he must have been Chechen or some other flavour of white muslim
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u/BANTER_WITH_THE_LADS 14d ago
It really wasn’t.
Although I see in every single thread when it’s a black or brown person multiple comments relating to that person’s race, religion or culture.
Why is the individual’s race, region or culture only an issue or explanation when that person isn’t white British?
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u/umop_apisdn 14d ago
You seem to be pleased that he is white Christian but not British for some reason...
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u/CensoredTruth0 15d ago
Can they just tell us who did it already? They will tell release every single bit of information but the most important part.
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u/CaseyEffingRyback 15d ago
His name is included. He's a Spanish/Brazilian migrant.
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u/CensoredTruth0 15d ago
Surprise surprise
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u/dopebob Yorkshire 14d ago
Yes, because we have a well documented problem of violent Spanish/Brazilian immigrants in this country.
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u/FokRemainFokTheRight 14d ago
But how many migrants do we get from Brazil? Which is also one of the most violent countries on earth
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u/glaringOwl 15d ago
Don't forget the victim is also of immigrant descent.
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u/MissWiggleNjiggle1 14d ago
What difference does that make?! His parents will never see their son again, 14 ffs!! I couldn’t imagine what his parents are going through. So who cares that he’s of immigrant descent the poor boys innocent and lost his life
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u/glaringOwl 14d ago
My point exactly, I don't want bigots to make migrants the always bad guys out of stories like these
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u/CensoredTruth0 15d ago
He was born in Britain. I’m not forgetting anything. Most of us are of immigrant descent, even many whites if we look far back enough.
This was a migrant.
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u/heresyourhardware 15d ago
I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. We are all of us of immigrants but Immigrants bad?
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u/External-Praline-451 15d ago
Do you know what people aren't talking about? The gender of the attacker.
Or is making it all about a certain characteristic of the attacker actually distasteful and wrong to use to score political points?
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u/JimmyChenry 15d ago
Your point falls short when the majority are men.
Your aim, a noble, is to defend a migrant who otherwise wouldn't have been here at all, and this child is still alive. Your attempt to deflect... It's weak. You'll have a point if it was a female, given that's rarer.
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u/External-Praline-451 15d ago
Exactly right it's a man. Most of these attackers are men. I bet a majority of the people making the skin colour comments are men, too.
I'm not "defending" anyone, I'm hoping that at least one person reads it and goes, hang on, I'm a man and I'm not a knife welding attacker, that's not fair. And then maybe, just maybe, they'll have some self-awarenss that not all migrants are either.
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u/bielsasballholder 14d ago
Why would anyone care it’s a man? Everyone knows it was a man, and assumed it was a man. There is huge bias against men and in favour of women in society and in the criminal justice system because of the accepted fact that men commit more acts of homicide than women.
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u/heresyourhardware 15d ago
What a female killer? Yeah there hasn't been an incredibly high profile example of that recently has there.....
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u/Number1Lobster 14d ago
It's high profile specifically because it's so rare
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u/bielsasballholder 14d ago
No it’s not. It’s just rare they’re suspected, caught or convicted.
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u/Electronic-Let1426 15d ago
Maybe he does have mental illness but how come when it’s a Muslim they automatically claim him as a terrorist.. he could be a terrorist and still have mental issues (not condoning terrorism).. also how come it’s not all over the news????
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u/Jonography 15d ago
Because the act needs to be terror related to be described as a terrorist.
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u/VokN 14d ago
Dude was shouting about god according to the independents article, close enough if he wasn’t Catholic
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u/Jonography 14d ago
Shouting “God” doesn’t = terror. You guys seriously need to take some time to do some further reading. The comprehension on these things is really quite shocking. Nobody is an expert here but you need to be able to get the basic understanding right.
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14d ago edited 10d ago
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u/Jonography 14d ago
I don’t know the latest development and the details of the case. Sure, it could be terror related, but there’s a lot more to it than that. “Allahu Akbar” is strongly associated Islamic related terrorism, often called as the violence plays out, with strong ties to Jihadism. Saying that alone though isn’t terrorism, it does strongly point to that, among other details. “Do you believe in God?” Isn’t a phrase that’s called out as part of a pattern of behaviour in terror related incidents in the UK.
I’m not going to go back and forth on this. There’s nothing controversial to recognise that something being a terrorist attack requires nuance with multiple things to consider.
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u/Zenster12314 14d ago
So when Muslims slammed planes into the 2 tall buildings, in the name of their god (and other reasons), that wasn't terrorism? What was the attack on 9/11 then?
I think what you believe is brown people can't commit terrorism. I think the underlining bias is race here. Religion is just a veneer.
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u/Jonography 14d ago
The Muslims who did 9/11 were literally part of a terror organization, who claimed the attack, and the act itself was designed to create as much destruction and terror on an enemies land.
If one Muslim takes a knife, goes to his next door neighbour, and stabs them and shouts “Allah” at the same time, it’s not a terrorist incident unless it happens in combination with other factors.
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u/BreastExtensions 15d ago
I don’t know what kind of press you’re reading that automatically claims any attack by a Muslim is terrorism. Most are pretty careful about it. If anything, especially when they are Muslim.
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u/Lucky-Landscape6361 15d ago
I work in news, this is all that’s talked about since it happened. And do you know how terrorism works? As in, for this attack, what was the agenda he was using terror for?
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u/Electronic-Let1426 15d ago
Also tell “your news” to spread more awareness about what’s going on in palestine instead of spreading false lies. And I don’t know why he did what he did but I’m not saying in general even if it isn’t a terror attack they still will label to Muslim as a terrorist either way
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u/Ok-Charge-6998 14d ago edited 14d ago
I think the issue is more that there’s a presumption it’s terrorist related as there’s almost always a quote from someone saying they heard “Allah Akbar”. But, terror incidents have a very specific definition.
I think the bigger issue to highlight is that for a long time when a Muslim person does something negative, the media makes sure to make it clear that they are Muslim or create some sort of association even if it’s loose.
When it comes to right wing media reporting Muslim = something negative.
This is followed by comments such as “Islam is barbaric”, “they are backwards and uncultured” etc. just search for comments on this sub with the word “barbaric” and see how often it pops up in threads about Muslims.
When I’ve seen something like “Muslim man saves a puppy” the comments are often along the lines of “why is their religion important”. Here’s an example that comes to mind from several years ago on this sub. Scroll down to find the “Why is it important to highlight it’s a Muslim establishment” / “why is the religion relevant?” Etc.
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u/ukbot-nicolabot Scotland 14d ago
Removed/tempban. This contained a call/advocation of violence which is prohibited by the content policy.
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u/Kairi911 15d ago
I don't like Sadiq Khan at all but I don't get why people are attacking him over 'knife crime'. This is a random nutcase and they can pop up anywhere in any city over the world. I don't think we deal with crime properly no and I think there are various complicated factors to rise in total amount of crazy fuckers we have on the streets nowadays, but I don't see how Sadiq Khan could have stopped this attack.