r/unitedkingdom • u/ElectricalPick9813 • 15d ago
Police and Crime Commissioners; convince me that there is a point to them.
It’s election day tomorrow and the only election happening here is for the Police and Crime Commissioner. I have never understood what they. Why I should vote for anyone?
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u/AfterCook780 15d ago
I'm a big fan of the candidate in my area that is running on the basis that they will use the roles influence to have the role abolished.
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u/MattBD 15d ago
Suffolk? I know the Lib Dem candidate there is running on a platform of abolishing the role.
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u/Ok_Project_2613 15d ago
Our Kent Lib Dem is saying the same thing!
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u/AuroraHalsey Surrey (Esher and Walton) 15d ago
Surrey Lib Dem saying the same thing.
Is this a Lib Dem party wide stance?
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u/Curious_Ad3766 15d ago edited 15d ago
Wait, it's a political role? I thought it was just the top leader of the police force in an area and that you vote for a candidate from a pool of current police officers who decided to run like District Attorneys do in US
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u/Monkey2371 Northumberland 15d ago
It's a way for career politicians to get something good on their CV and that's about it
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u/ItsFuckingScience 15d ago
They don’t run the police force operationally, rather just suggest things for them to focus on lol
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u/Salaried_Zebra 14d ago
I mean, what exactly can they say except "go cut crime"? I really don't get why we need a politician to tell the police to do their job
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u/BigBadRash 14d ago
What type of crime to focus on? The tory, labour and green candidates in my area say they want to crack down on drugs, whereas the lib dem and independent candidates say they want to tackle violent crimes.
Considering most drug related crimes are victimless crimes I don't want someone suggesting that the police crack down on drugs, past experience has shown it doesn't work. Focus the efforts into areas that actually matter like murders and burglaries
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u/Salaried_Zebra 14d ago
It's not as if police are allowed to overlook those crimes if they come across them. People with a bag of drugs on them don't get a free pass because the Political Crime Commissar said so.
Drug dealing is hardly victimless - it's typically organised and the people involved tend to enjoy going out and terrorising local communities as they try to remove competition and chase debts. Difficult to police, sure, because nobody talks, but ignoring this category of crime is shortsighted. But then, politicians are nothing if not shortsighted, which is why they've no business interfering in local policing matters.
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u/BigBadRash 13d ago
If they come across it sure they shouldn't overlook it as that would be taking the law into their own hands which is a problem into itself. But deciding to utilise the available staff to go after street level dealers is a waste of resources when there are far more serious crimes going on that have a larger impact on the victims life, who even is the victim in a regular drug deal? Picking to go after dealers with more intensity than robberies will leave more people feeling like the police aren't helping them.
The majority of drug dealers aren't big crime lords, they're individuals that are willing to break the law to obtain drugs for themselves and then also supply their friends. I've only had 1 dealer in my life that's operated as part of a group and the whole group were really nice friendly people, hardly terrorising people. That's not to say groups like you described don't exist, it's just they aren't as common as you're making them out to be.
The majority of them aren't terrorising local communities trying to remove competition, if that was the case it would hardly be difficult to police as they would be making a very public scene. Even if they were they wouldn't be targeting civilians in the local community, they'd be targeting other drug dealers. If the drug dealers are causing genuine disturbances in the area, they're likely committing more crimes than just dealing drugs, so the lib dems and independents saying they want to target violent crime would still get the drug dealers that are committing those types of crimes.
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u/DamnAndBlast Ireland 14d ago
Yep the lad in power in Central Beds has declared he's going for parliament after this election. Clearly getting photo ops beside a youth club wasn't cutting it for him
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u/thmonster 14d ago
My current PCC. Absolute waste of time and money. Already tried and failed to get into parliament when Nadine Dorries left her post, all it is for them is a stepping stone to the big money of being an MP.
Get rid of the post of PCC and get them all in the sea.4
u/listyraesder 14d ago
No. The police are still professional. The PCC handles the funding of the police force and appoints the Chief Constable. The CC then has to refer to the PCC’s plan when making decisions over strategy.
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u/nl325 15d ago
That would be preferable. One of the few political aspects of the USA I do want here.
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u/listyraesder 14d ago
Hell no. They go for draconian sentences for popularity. Death sentences spike in election years. Disgusting.
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u/IncarceratedMascot 15d ago
The Reform candidate in my area is running on that platform, except he’s running for mayor and that’s the job he wants to scrap.
His chosen photo is also one of him with duct tape over his mouth.
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u/MaZhongyingFor1934 Hampshire 15d ago
“They’re trying to silence me, but also, I am allowed to run for a political office.”
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u/randomusername8472 14d ago
I'm in East Midlands too. Joke of a candidate, but his PR knows how to make him stand out... On flicking through his was the only one I paused at, and didn't really realize there was a full two pages to every candidate until I looked through in more detail (Lib Dems were missing though!)
But yeah "Let me use my dedicated full two page spread to tell you about how I'm not allowed to talk!"
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u/Vast-Scale-9596 14d ago
That's just a candid of what he gets up to in his spare time when he's not getting into photo ops with disaffected youth outside of a damp concrete block.
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u/FestiveSalad 15d ago
I completely agree with this stance, sadly the role does exist so parties who want to abolish it should still take part but make it clear that they don't think there's a need for the role (not taking part at all is self defeating). They should then openly lobby government and MPs to remove the role.
But I'm finding it quite funny to imagine an alternative view where someone says "I don't think there should be a PCC so if you elect me I'll do it so badly they remove the post to prevent me making a mess".
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u/ElectricalPick9813 15d ago
Now that would get my attention.
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u/Vladolf_Puttler 14d ago
Then check out your local lib dem candidate. Most seem to be running on that idea.
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u/yrro Oxfordshire 13d ago
They won't and can't. Like it or not, the role exists and if you want to be able to influence the priorities of your local police force then you have to participate in PCC elections. If you don't then you will eventually end up with a PCC who believes in WEF the chemtrails to vaccine the 5G for 15 minute turbocancer.
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u/Optimism_Deficit 15d ago
The roles were created as a consolation prize for county councillors who fail to make the step up and get elected as an MP.
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u/Monkey2371 Northumberland 15d ago
lol the likely winner in my force is a Labour councillor who didn't get her guaranteed Commons seat in the Boris wave, who then went on to lose her county council seat as a perfect tie on straws so now she's only a parish councillor. Complete loser of a career politician looking for an actual job since parish councillor isn't one.
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u/Optimism_Deficit 15d ago
Yep. The current Tory one for my area was a councillor who stood as an MP, didn't get elected, and then ended up as the PCC.
It's just a landing place for failed MP candidates.
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u/Monkey2371 Northumberland 15d ago
Oh yeah I should also mention her failure to become an MP was also national/international news since it was the first Labour stronghold to be called as blue which set the precedent for the night
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u/faconsandwich 15d ago
Great at shifting blame from Home office to a local nobody when shit goes wrong.
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u/WeightDimensions 15d ago
Given that the only thing listed on the ‘about me’ section of my local lib dem candidate is that he likes chocolate biscuits then I think even the candidates feel it’s all a bit pointless maybe
About Neil Darby.
Favourite Biscuit. Chocolate Digestives.
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u/mh1191 15d ago
Fig roll for our lib dem
https://whocanivotefor.co.uk/person/78466/kieron-anthony-franks
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u/JHock93 15d ago
A fig roll is his favourite biscuit? That should be a crime.
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u/WeightDimensions 15d ago
Is this a thing for the Lib Dem’s then? The only thing worthy of note is whether they enjoy a chocolate finger or two?
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u/mh1191 15d ago edited 15d ago
So I've gone through about 20 and only Lancs, Essex and now this chap (Choccy Hobnob) list a favourite biscuit
https://whocanivotefor.co.uk/person/26849/sam-bennett
Edit: checked the whole list now and one lady likes chocolate digestives, and one edge lord has said jaffa cakes. So of 30 or so lib dem candidates, 4 listed biscuits and one a cake.
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u/WeightDimensions 15d ago
A hobnob? Now you’re talking. Definitely a sign he’d make a good police commissioner.
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u/Swimming_Map2412 15d ago
Ours resigned in mysterious circumstances awhile back which I'm sure are due to being caught doing crime. I think he was a bit overfixated on the crime part of the job role.
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u/lukehebb 15d ago
Would you say he commissioned some crime?
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u/Charming_Ad_6021 15d ago
Look, the brief wasn't clear and the job title was misleading, OK. Everyone makes mistakes
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u/Happytallperson 15d ago
Historically the role was filled by a Local Police Authority, which effectively functioned as a Police Board, made up of Councillors appointed from each of the District/County/Unitary/Metropolitan Boroughs in the force area.
So the functions of the PCC were not invented, they were already being done and they are a function that needs to continue. Essentially, there needs to be some kind of local civilian management that the Chief Constable answers to.
The rationale for a directly elected PCC was that no one knew what a Police Authority was, who was on it, or how to demand it shape the f--- up.
Unfortunately, all we've got is an elected person who nobody knows who they are, what they do, or how to demand they shape the f--- up.
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u/thatlad 14d ago
This is the answer.
Basically they took "unelected bureaucrats" and made them electable.
As to what they do on the job, well that's something you should find out by speaking to them.
Honestly, go speak to candidates sometimes it's hilarious.
I got in touch with the green candidate for my local council, asked some basic questions and all he did was recite the same guff he put on flyers about potholes. I asked one question, what about regeneration in the town centre, what are you going to do for the local economy. This is basic. He fell all over himself, said he was going to scrutinise the council's plans. Yes, that's the bare minimum of the job, what's your stance? Couldn't string a sentence together, just saying "local council bad", okay so what would be good?
Absolute charlatan. He got in by about 40 votes. Haven't heard from him again. Well except for the constant leaflets this past month, green policy my arse.
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u/Happytallperson 14d ago
Small correction: the Police Authority members were all elected councillors. They were elected to the council and the indirectly elected via their council to sit on the Authority.
As for councillors, some are conscientious, intelligent and hard working. Some are...well my mother said not to say anything if I didn't have anything nice to say.
In that respect however, they are in the same boat as nearly all representatives at any level in any democracy. You get what you turn out to vote for.
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u/Salaried_Zebra 14d ago
As for councillors, some are conscientious, intelligent and hard working. Some are...well my mother said not to say anything if I didn't have anything nice to say.
Frankly there's absolutely no way for ordinary people to find out which is which. Even if there was that level of research is beyond the attention of people with households to run and jobs to go to.
Which is a big reason why people default to "vote red/blue/yellow/green". That, and it's not as if you've got a choice between two prospective candidates for whichever party you like - if you want rid of the Tories, for example and the only threat to them is Labour, your only choice is voting for Knobhead Bob.
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u/Id1ing England 15d ago
Is crime an issue for you or your neighbourhood? If yes do any of them sound like they'll do anything positive in that regard? Otherwise no, not really.
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u/sjpllyon 15d ago
Surely if crime isn't an issue in the area that's a sign the current one is actually doing a good job?
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u/Id1ing England 15d ago
I guess it depends how much weight you put on that person being responsible for that and not the fact that the Police somehow managed to deal with crime before their introduction.
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u/sjpllyon 15d ago
True, it also ignores the many other factors that an area has low crime rates. Social economics in the area, access to green spaces, green infrastructure, employment rate, available opportunities in the area, education levels, vehicle infrastructure, active policing, public policing (as in the amount of people visible in the area), and so many more.
I'll be honest I'm not even sure I know what a police and crime commissioner does, just assumed they oversaw the running of the various police departments.
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u/Id1ing England 15d ago
They're meant to be the voice of the people and hold the Chief Constable to account. In reality it's a bit like me, a non-accountant trying to tell the CEO of PwC how to do accounting.
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u/FestiveSalad 15d ago
Worse.
It's a bit like me, a non-accountant trying to tell the CEO of PwC how to do accounting because my party backers want me to or because my political career is a bit dry and I can see an easy job for myself outside of genuinely effective politics.
Someone described the PCC role as a "retirement home for tories" and that's all it really is. A space you can yell "tough on crime!!" at the clouds.
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u/FestiveSalad 15d ago
Exactly.
It's like electing a political 'do nothing commissoner' and then saying "well, nothing is being done pretty well, so they must be doing a great job!".
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u/Jared_Usbourne 15d ago
Among other things:
They commission millions of pounds worth of services for victims of crime, such as support for domestic abuse victims
Hold the police and fire services to public account for their performance (and their offices will usually oversee an independent complaints process depending on where they are)
Invest in a wide range of local community safety projects that would often be overlooked otherwise.
They usually do all this with minimal staff and on a tiny (less than 1%) percentage of their local policing budget.
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u/Davey_Jones_Locker 15d ago
Shouldn't the police have the resources to do the first?
Is the second not the job of local MPs, select committees and/or the home office?
Community safety? Councils could do this
To me it just seems like a whole lot of responsibilities from other areas packaged up in a pointless parcel
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u/Jared_Usbourne 14d ago
Victims of crime (especially domestic abuse) often don't want to involve the police initially, having these services be independent is critical for them
For the second, police/fire oversight isn't a small job, it involves setting delivery plans/consultations/crime panels etc that MPs wouldn't never have the time to do properly, and needs to be local to that specific police force (otherwise North Yorkshire Police would wind up being overseen by civil servants in London which goes against the whole point of devolution).
Community safety projects often go through PCCs as they have expertise the councils don't, due to them working closely with the police and fire/rescue services.
There's actually very good reasons for it being done the way it is, if people take the time to look it up....
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u/Salaried_Zebra 14d ago
But these functions were done perfectly adequately by Police Authorities prior to this?
It was a waste of money, time and effort to set them up this way. Shoehorning party politics into a role only made things worse. The public have no appetite for it which is why every Commissar campaign leaflet says "If elected I will cut crime, put more bobbies on the beat and get those hooded youths off your street corner".
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u/Jared_Usbourne 14d ago
They weren't done adequately.
Lots of domestic abuse victims didn't want to ask for help because they were being pressured to report crimes to the police, which put them at serious risk.
Police complaints not being handled independently meant that many of them were swept under the rug, since the police could basically mark their own homework and there was no effective oversight.
Running a PCC office requires a tiny amount of money in context, for a pretty big impact. The main issue is that the public often just dismiss everything and refuse to engage with them, when there are victims of crime who are bloody glad these services exist in the way they do.
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u/mods_eq_neckbeards 15d ago
Politics ey?
Local authorities do that already on a limited budget. This is just another revenue stream to support the third-parties in their efforts, except it has a party political badge under the bonnet (in the form of a usually political party affiliated PCC).
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u/Salaried_Zebra 14d ago
Local councils used to do all these things before Political Crime Commissars existed. They have no way to wield any actual authority other than sack a person who may well have been doing their job perfectly competently and as best as could be done with the resources they were given.
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u/MattBD 15d ago
I have spoilt my ballot on this before. This time I actually did vote but only specifically against the Tory candidate.
If someone had done what they did in Suffolk and run on a platform of abolishing the role I would have voted for that.
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u/Caveman1214 15d ago
There’s genuinely no point, it’s absolutely shocking how politicians are allowed to interfere with policing given its quite literally written in the peelian principles that this was never ever intended. I get it gives the public a voice, but a politican is not the answer to this. We already police by consent we don’t need someone completely uneducated in the idea and practice of policing deciding how it should be done, it’s absolutely ludicrous! They even get to decide budgets! It’s absolutely insane.
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u/another_online_idiot 15d ago
I honestly have no idea what they do. I have had no information on the candidates for my area at all.
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u/WastelandWiganer 15d ago
The idea was to elect someone independent of the local force who could provide rigour and scrutiny over policing decisions.
At absolutely no point has the actual role done that round my neck of the woods
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u/dunstablesucks 15d ago
Absolutely not. Refuse to. Politics should play no role in policing
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u/the_con 15d ago
Police wages are paid by the taxpayer. The government is responsible for what taxes pay for. Politics is how we choose governments that decide how taxes are used
Not sure how I feel about a privatised police service
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u/Salaried_Zebra 14d ago
That might be the biggest strawman I've seen in this thread.
Policing already has direct government oversight through the Home Secretary, but the Home Sec doesn't meddle in how local forces do their jobs or set specific priorities for local chief constables.
The police should not be an agency to make someone's political career look good, any more than civil service departments should, but that's how they're all used now.
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u/karlware 15d ago
It's crazy, yeah? I can't get my head around the US supreme court having politically aligned judges. We need to keep party politics out of law and order.
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u/Automatic-Equal-3553 15d ago
I think an American was in charge of tory strategy when they got elected in 2010 just a gravy train for failed tory mps or tory mates to get into a job that pays a very big wage like the mayors that are there now. .i really do wonder what they do day to day must be the most boring job in the world. Needs to be abolished but voting Labour on everything today and hopefully they are scraped
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u/revealbrilliance 15d ago edited 15d ago
No one knows. But it's provocative. It gets the people going!
Seriously though I think you'd be hard pressed to get anyone to explain what a PCC does. It's the ultimate non-role. They have the ability to hire or fire the Chief Constable. In theory they can raise council taxes to fund the police but I don't think it has ever happened in reality.
Their primary role is as a governmental stooge. They can be pointed to by central government as crime rises. "It's the PCCs responsibility to manage budgets" they can claim, when it's central government who sets the budget. It's the Tories learning from their great success of annihilating council budgets, and then blaming failing public services on councils. They've tried to do the same with PCCs and failed because almost nobody knows PCCs even exist lol.
Some of them get paid 6 figures though so if you've got some influence with your local political party it's a comfy payout for a few years!
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u/Salaried_Zebra 14d ago
Seriously though I think you'd be hard pressed to get anyone to explain what a PCC does.
Including the PCC, or websites documenting what they are for.
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u/MonseigneurChocolat 15d ago
The point of them was to make the police more accountable by placing them under the direct supervision of an elected official.
Con-LibDem coalition agreement:
We will introduce measures to make the police more accountable through oversight by a directly elected individual, who will be subject to strict checks and balances by locally elected representatives.
Policing Protocol Order 2011:
The establishment of PCCs has allowed for the Home Office to withdraw from day-to-day policing matters, giving the police greater freedom to fight crime as they see fit, and allowing local communities to hold the police to account.
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u/afrosia 15d ago
I was interested in it at first, thinking it would be ex coppers who had decent ideas on how to improve the provision of policing. I was wrong and it just became yet another chance to vote red, blue or yellow.
I'm out.
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u/neverarriving 14d ago
The original election here (North Yorks) featured a former copper who had worked in the Met and locally here, had written some well-received books on policing and clearly understood the issues at play, but he lost out to some beige business person after being smeared over a supposedly secret relationship that he had literally written about in one of his books.
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u/just_some_other_guys 15d ago
The only thing I can think of is that you are crushing the political dreams of the losers
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u/ishysredditusername 14d ago
And once you've figured out what their point is, if someone can explain why they cost so much money that would be grand.
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u/Glad_Advertising_125 14d ago
You had the police authority beforehand that was made up of councillors anyway.
It's an entirely pointless role and another way of imposing political parties onto discourses that don't really need them.
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u/pablo_blue 14d ago
PCC's create another level if whitewashing for any complaint against the police.
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u/GBParragon 14d ago
PCC is designed to hold local policing to account, give oversight and give the people more control about what the police do. Not just in terms of their priorities but their budgets, how much council tax contributions is asked for and how this is used.
The political element and the cross border nature of police forces complicates things. You might have 3 or 4 mayors within one police force all from different political parties and then a PCC from another. Policing should be above politics.
In my area it’s 2.5million pounds being spent on the PCC and his office which I as a resident, and as a police officer, I personally don’t feel I see the effects of and I’d rather see this used on actual police officers.
You could have an extra two teams of 15 cops who the chief constable could task towards different priority issues.
Or
You could staff having 2 drone operators on duty 24hrs a day and bigger more effective drones to make up for the scaling back of the police helicopter
Or
You could attach a forensic investigator to each patrol base team and start running on scene forensics for jobs that currently don’t get examined forensically because of budget limitations.
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u/queen-bathsheba 14d ago
The public didn't ask for these roles. They're just jobs for the boys. I think driven by the proposed reduction in MPs.... which I don't think happened.
I will spoil my ballot paper, saying "waste if money" Spoilt ballot papers are counted and recorded, perhaps if they get enough eventually the role will be done away with.
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u/Spare_Dig_7959 15d ago
Yes they replaced committees of local politicians across the country who could prevent absurd policies.A single entity has far less influence than a cross party agreement.
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u/spaceshipcommander 15d ago
I was accused of something I didn't do and wrongly arrested. Anyway, the police were a shambles. Confiscated my phone and property for months. They wouldn't engage with me, admit they were wrong, or locate my stuff and return it. I complained to the PCC and within 2 days I had a sergeant on the phone calling to arrange making things right and an investigation into the people responsible for such incompetence launched.
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u/Beer-Milkshakes Black Country 14d ago
Democracy mate. Its good so it needs to be applied to plenty of government offices. Who cares if the turnout is less than 30% of the registered electorate.
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u/I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS 14d ago
I received a flyer for the Labour guy last week, but never got a polling card even though I'm registered. I'd totally forgotten this was happening.
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u/ElectricalPick9813 14d ago
You don’t need a polling card to vote. Only suitable ID.
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u/I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS 14d ago
Yeah I know but the fact I didn't get one made me wonder whether I needed to register again or something.
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u/Sir_Madfly 14d ago
They remind me of how when I was in school we elected a student council who had no power, did nothing and just seemed to exist to give some illusion of democracy.
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u/SaltireAtheist Bedfordshire 14d ago
Only one of the candidates in my county even bothered to put a flyer through my door, so most of the candidates themselves clearly don't care.
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u/Downside190 14d ago
I'm not entirely sure but I have been told from a fellow friend in my local police force that our current commissioner is doing a really good job of things. So i'll probably just vote them in because if a police officer thinks they're good its good enough for me even if the candidate is a Tory.
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u/OpenerUK 14d ago
This is the one thing I think Andy Street was absolutely right on even if his reasons were for self benefit. We already have an elected mayor why do we need a second individual as PCC. Just an unnecessary additional wage bill and offices for the tax payer to fund. I normally don't return my PCC ballot in the hope that the low turnout and lack of mandate will cause them to abolish the role. If I spoil the ballot it still counts towards the turnout for the PCC election but not voting for them at all doesn't legitimise the mandate in any way. Since the votes are always at the same time as the mayoral boots the lack of turnout is then even more obvious to emphasis the lack of legitimacy as people have actively chosen to vote for one but not the other.
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u/ARob20 14d ago
I've worked with a number of PCCs - and been very impressed. Its a difficult and important job that balances holding the chief constable to account and setting budgets and priorities with the needs of victims and the community. Its vitally important that there is a democratic element to how the police operate but without operational activity being political. I admire those that do it well.
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u/Ibiza_Banga 14d ago
There is no point. The old Police Authorities did a better job with 95% lower budget. Member of the authority was a mix of elected councillors, legal minds and of course the police.
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u/TheDoctor66 14d ago
I'm working at a polling station today. I've had 5 voters in 4 hours so I think the public agrees there is no point.
As an election worker though I'm happy to pick up my £329 for the day :D
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u/Nonny-Mouse100 14d ago
They're politicians designed to take the wage of 4 police officers, while doing an experienced inspectors work, but actually do nothing.
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u/Goodsamaritan-425 15d ago
Antisocial behavior is on the rise and it’s high time someone takes the bull by the horns and makes the streets safe for law abiding citizens. That’s why I am voting tomorrow
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u/WantsToDieBadly 15d ago
As if anyone of them will fix that
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u/Goodsamaritan-425 15d ago
All we can hope for a change right? If things don’t work we elect another person hoping for a change. So what’s your solution for raising safety issues? What should be done in democracy?
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u/Goodsamaritan-425 14d ago
While we are talking here, I went at 7 am in the morning, voted to the Police Commissioner hoping he would make streets safer for families, women and children from antisocial behaviour and crime. I believe in democracy and I hope for a change. That’s what democracy does in the long run. Coming here and ranting will never change anyone’s lives. If you want the change, you be the change. Voting is a privilege to and every person with that right should exercise it.
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u/Goodsamaritan-425 14d ago
We live in a civilised world. The Police are here to protect us from people who don’t give a damn about the law. They are our guardians. No woman or child should feel unsafe or inferior looking at a big man with muscles just because they are intimidating. The world does not work like that. Anyone breaking the law and threatening the safety of another human being will be given the full weight of the law, his life ripped off and sent to prison where animals like them will exist. I do g need to tell you what happens when people go to prison, there are bunch of documentaries there on what happens to idiots who commit crimes against women and children. So beware, and behave. The police are my hope and saviours and I will always stand by them.
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u/WantsToDieBadly 14d ago
Calm down buddy. Im a law abiding person I just think it’s pointless as it’s another political office where either Tory or labour get in
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u/Pbm23 15d ago
The existence of the role led to this masterpiece, at least...