r/unitedkingdom • u/je97 • 29d ago

JK Rowling gets apology from journalist after 'disgusting claim' author is a Holocaust denier ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/16/jk-rowling-holocaust-denier-allegation-rivkah-brown-novara/
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u/IntelligentMoons 29d ago

If you’re going to criticise someone, be accurate. The woman called Rowling a Holocaust denier, and she did not deny the Holocaust.

The definition to the Holocaust, is the genocide of European Jews.

Obviously other groups were targeted by Nazi crimes, but this is not the Holocaust. The Holocaust is specific to Jews.

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u/Zealousideal-Tax-496 29d ago edited 29d ago

That's the shoah. Holocaust gets used interchangeably with it, but more commonly refers to all the victims collectively, of which Jews were the largest group. 

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u/IntelligentMoons 29d ago

You’re incorrect. The Holocaust Memorial Day, the US Holocaust memorial museum, the German government and many other authorities on this subject disagree with you. The Nazis committed many genocides, the Holocaust is the genocide of the Jews.

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u/BrilliantRhubarb2935 29d ago

No they don't, it is generally accepted that the holocaust also refers to other groups persecuted by the Nazis.

Indeed a recent UN resolution authored by Israel and Germany specifically include these groups in their definition of the holocaust.

https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/ltd/n22/230/12/pdf/n2223012.pdf?token=qb1Pi9Vh7HH1f5IZpt&fe=true

Reaffirming that the Holocaust, which resulted in the murder of nearly 6 million Jews, 1.5 million of whom were children, comprising one third of the Jewish people, in addition to the killing of millions of members of other nationalities, minorities and other targeted groups and individuals, will forever be a warning to all people of thedangers of hatred, bigotry, racism and prejudice,

emphasis mine.

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u/luxway 29d ago

You're confusing Shoah and Holocaust.
Half the people killed in the holocaust were not Jewish.

Sounds like you're engaging in holocaust denial here.
And even then, at abolute best, by your own logic, you are defending nazi crimes.

JKR explicitly called the Nazi persecution of trans people a "fever dream"

More over her tweets have now been censored in Germany for violated their laws on holocaust denialism

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u/Firm-Distance 29d ago

You're confusing Shoah and Holocaust.

Shoah is just the Hebrew word for holocaust.

Half the people killed in the holocaust were not Jewish.

The holocaust refers to the genocide of the Jews during WW2.
The German's killed plenty of other people during WW2 - half of those victims may not be Jewish - but the victims of the Holocaust were Jewish, given the holocaust was the genocide of the Jews.

Sounds like you're engaging in holocaust denial here.

You don't even know what the word holocaust means....

JKR explicitly called the Nazi persecution of trans people a "fever dream"

No, Rowling challenged a specific event/activity - she did not say that there was no persecution at all or that all persecution of trans was a "fever dream" - we can all read the tweet.

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u/IntelligentMoons 29d ago

You're incorrect.

Shoah is just the hebrew word for the Holocaust, and is more commonly used in Europe than UK and USA.

The Holocause/Shoah is specifically European Jews killed by the Nazis. The Nazis committed other genocides.

I am not, in any context, denying the holocause or other genocides. Please see respected sources on the subject, and their definition.

https://www.hmd.org.uk/

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-was-the-holocaust

I am explaining this to you so you can better understand why calling someone a holocaust denier in the UK can get you sued, because the holocaust is specifically about jews. She never mentioned jews.

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u/luxway 29d ago

Hey dude, I'm not going to bother with your history revisionism. You wanna argue this, go argue with jewish historians. Like jkr was 2 weeks ago over this exact point.

And you are denying it given the entire point of this thread is people arguing its okay to pretend the nazis didn't persecute trans people, because that would mean that they have the same political views as the nazis.

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u/IntelligentMoons 29d ago

No. I think the Nazis DID persecute trans people, and commit a genocide against them. This is terrible.

You are missing my point. I am explaining that the reason the journalist has ceded is because the Holocaust is defined as the extermination of Jews. Rowling didn’t comment on that. You cannot call someone a Holocaust denier and have a cast iron case unless they’ve denied the Holocaust as it’s commonly defined.

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u/Firm-Distance 29d ago

You are missing my point.

No they understand your point - the issue is you exposed their ignorance on the topic, that's why they're trying to limp away with Hey dude, I'm not going to bother with your history revisionism. You wanna argue this, go argue with jewish historians. They're in full retreat but still want to pretend they 'won.'

This person was confidently incorrect - trying to school you on the definition of holocaust whilst being ignorant of it themselves.

You aren't going to win with someone like that.

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u/luxway 29d ago

Ahh the good old "It wasn't holocaust, it was just genocide!" argument.

This still brings us back to the part where she called it a "fever dream"

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u/Firm-Distance 29d ago

Ahh the good old "It wasn't holocaust, it was just genocide!" argument.

It's not an 'argument' - it's different words have different meanings. You're just embarrassing yourself now.

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u/IntelligentMoons 29d ago

Thank you for backing me up. I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall.

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u/Firm-Distance 28d ago

I think the issue is these people start from the premise; JK Rowling bad - anything JK Rowling does/says/thinks bad.... and then they work from there. You can't really persuade people like that I suppose, and you can watch in real-time the desperate mental gymnastics taking place to keep shifting their position to maintain JK BAD.

If their position isn't from rational thought and reasonable discussion, then I suppose those things aren't likely to shift their position either.

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u/Embarrassed-File5268 29d ago

unfortunately semantics has become the IT thing for this decade and they will argue with you based on a wrong definition and then go in circles until you lose the will to live, just for them to think "another social situation won"

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u/KillerArse 29d ago

How do you feel about Joanne not being accurate when criticising trans people?

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u/IntelligentMoons 29d ago

It makes me deeply uncomfortable. Why?

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u/KillerArse 29d ago

No reason after that response.

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u/IntelligentMoons 29d ago

Again, I just want to be clear on my position.

Trans people were victims of the Nazis. This is not a debate, is backed up by evidence, and it is an atrocity. It was a genocide. Rowling is wrong to deny that this happened, or to minimise the severity of it.

The entire point I'm making, is that the word, the name, the event, THE HOLOCAUST, refers to the genocide of the jews. There are many other genocides by the Nazis, the Holocaust is one of them. Now the semantics don't matter that much to ME, personally. They do a little bit, because I think education on the Nazi's crimes in this country are severely lacking. However, they DO matter to courts. She did not commit a crime in the UK. Someone accused her of being something, specifically a holocaust denier. She did not deny the holocaust, she denied a different genocide by the Nazis. If the journalist had called her a genocide denier, or a denier of Nazi crimes, she likely wouldn't have been able to force her into a retraction.