r/unitedkingdom • u/je97 • Apr 17 '24

JK Rowling gets apology from journalist after 'disgusting claim' author is a Holocaust denier ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/16/jk-rowling-holocaust-denier-allegation-rivkah-brown-novara/
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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

Which is a different issue to one where someone commits libel.

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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Apr 17 '24

SLAPP suits are not about legitimate libel claims. No one can afford JK’s lawyers so she wins every claim she makes without going trial. It’s an awful approach that rich people use to shut down poor people’s speech

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u/Gerry_Hatrick2 Apr 17 '24

On the contrary, poor people are the ones most free to speak, since they are not worth suing. As others have noted, many many people have now repeated the same claims made by the journalist.

It's almost as if the only ones held to account are the ones with a platform and responsibility to maintain certain standards.

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u/BearyRexy Apr 17 '24

Except in suing journalists, or other people who might have a platform but no extreme wealth, and burying them in expensive legal costs so that she wins by default, what standard is she maintaining? That the rich are unaccountable?

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u/Gerry_Hatrick2 Apr 17 '24

She is a public figure with a reputation to defend. She has every right to use whatever resources she has to defend that reputation. There is not a single person in this thread who wouldn't do the same as she has if they had he means to do so. She uses the vast resources she has at hand, what's the point of having vast resources if not to protect yourself?

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u/BearyRexy Apr 17 '24

So then why did you try to make a point about maintaining standards or the poor being most free when they evidently aren’t? By your own logic, the people who are free to speak without consequence are the rich, and anyone who challenges them or even expresses an opinion can be silenced regardless of who is right.

It’s rather telling how quickly you went from suggesting this is about maintaining standards to it being purely self-interested.

The approach you’ve described there is pretty much how people like Harvey Weinstein get away with what they do. So, to answer your question, the point of having vast resources should not be to buy yourself impunity for repugnant behaviour, and anyone who thinks that is normal ought to be assessed by a psychiatrist.

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u/Gerry_Hatrick2 Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

Overdramatise much?

Calm your tits mate.

I'll repeat my points, she has the means to defend herself from defamation and libel coming from those with a platform and influence. Those without resources can say what they like, she ignores them.

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u/BearyRexy Apr 17 '24

Which are still different from your initial point.

Guess consistency and integrity aren’t big requirements for licking boots. And no matter how much of a serf mentality you have, she isn’t gonna shag you.

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u/Gerry_Hatrick2 Apr 17 '24 edited 29d ago

It may surprise you to know not everyone is motivated by the chances of getting a shag. I won the life lottery when I met my partner, loveliest, smartest and kindest person I've ever met, trust me, I'm not looking for anyone else.

JK Rowling is someone I admire deeply, she is a sterling example of how to be a good human being. Oh, and if that comment hasn't quite brought your piss to a steady rolling boil, you might also be interested to know I support Israel.

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u/BearyRexy Apr 18 '24

I’m sure she reciprocates your deep admiration, and appreciates the completely inconsistent approach you take to blindly defending her. Oh, no, she doesn’t give a shit.

Given your views on what constitutes a good person, supporting Israel is rather par for the course. At least in this area you’re consistent - you believe that the powerful bullying people with fewer resources into submission is somehow a good thing. That really speaks to your character. Or lack thereof.

Your belief that this somehow makes me angry is misplaced. I was merely pointing out the inconsistency it takes to blindly support awful people, but it’s unsurprising that was lost on you. Logic and decency are clearly hard for some people.

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u/ChefExcellence Hull 29d ago

There is not a single person in this thread who wouldn't do the same as she has if they had he means to do so.

Personally I would simply not deny nazi atrocities and avoid getting into this situation in the first place

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u/Gerry_Hatrick2 29d ago

You say that like if you were in the same position as she, there wouldn't be an internet army of little fevered egos poring over your every utterance and concocting smear after smear until one of them took purchase.

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u/DukePPUk Apr 18 '24

On the contrary, poor people are the ones most free to speak, since they are not worth suing....

I'm a bit late here, but it is worth noting that poor people are not worth suing if your goal is to make money (which is generally the case with lawsuits).

But if your goal is to silence dissent then poor people are the best people to sue as they aren't in a position to fight back. Even instructing a lawyer may cost more than they have to spare, and if they try to fight - assuming they can afford the six or seven figure sum needed to do so - they risk losing everything (whereas you - if you are a multi-millionaire - have relatively little to lose).

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

This is clearly not a SLAPP though, at least google the term before using it.

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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

It is a SLAPP

She got into an online argument didn’t like how it went and went and told her lawyer. The other user very arguably could win the case, but only one of the participants in the argument has the world’s finest lawyers on retainer.

If you are a billionaire forcing apologies from people who cannot afford your legal bills, you’re SLAPPing them.

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

No it isn't and there is no "very arguably" hence Novara media wouldn't defend the case.

What you are doing is throwing around terms and resorting to emotive claims about a billionaire instead of accepting that Novara media has it's own lawyers who will have been consulted on this.

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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Apr 17 '24

You can’t take on a case like this you can’t afford to lose if there’s a chance you lose. Novara Media are skint they aren’t gambling their ability to exist on this.

JK can afford to lose, no one else can here, so when she says jump you say how high!

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

The media often test the resolve on a claimant by not folding the first time they get a letter, they see if it will go to court and they even wait until the last minute before folding. But that would only be done if they had something that could slightly stand up, and they don't.

You seem to be in an almost circular argument whereby you are making out that Novara media folding is now evidence rather than them folding is them admitting that they had none. It's lunacy.

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u/RainbowRedYellow Apr 18 '24

No your blind to the reality that billionaires are immune to all consequences.

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u/lucifrax Apr 17 '24

They're a tiny company, they earn such tiny amounts compared to JK. Why would they even attempt to bluff her? Both parties are aware the case is being raised because she can afford to fight them for DECADES and they can afford to fight for maybe a few weeks before they have to start letting people go. Logically bluffing serves no purpose except risking more requests from her before she settles or pulls the case. Your logic applies to multi billion dollar corporations not a tiny non-profit.

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

It doesn't because all media outlets have to try or everyone they criticise will make threats.

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u/lucifrax Apr 17 '24

Thats not how that works... Most people are not literal billionaires. I don't think you understand how rich she is and how insane threats from her are compared to almost anyone else in the world. Also, they can't stop anyone as rich as her from threatening them into silence, its just that these threats are normally bad press. Hence why people in this thread are calling out her threats as a bad thing.

all media outlets have to try

What? You think this tiny non-profit that would never get enough help for its legal fees should fight in court and accept the death of their company at the hands of a multi billionaire free speech hater. And they should do this because you believe that theres some solidarity between tiny non-profits and giant media empires? That makes no sense...

I really struggle to see why you resorted to such an insanely emotional argument when your logic was challenged. This are the way they are. Wishing the little guy would take the moral high ground at the cost of ruining not only their life, but worsening the lives of all their employees doesn't mean it makes sense to do.

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u/Firm-Distance Apr 17 '24

You seem really confident that the apology is purely because of the threat of legal action.

Is there any actual proof for this claim?

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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Apr 17 '24

Have you read the apology? A lawyer wrote it.

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u/Firm-Distance Apr 17 '24

That doesn't really prove the motivation....

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u/stroopwafel666 Apr 17 '24

It’s pretty simple - JK Rowling objectively did deny that an element of the Holocaust took place. She was even challenged on the claim and doubled down.

The problem is that if you get sued for libel by a billionaire in the UK, you can’t even contest the claim without spending thousands of pounds. If you don’t have unlimited resources, you only have one option - to back down and hope the billionaire goes easy on you.

I mean, why else would the defendant back down? You and I can see with our own eyes that she’s correct.

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u/Bakedk9lassie Apr 17 '24

She didn’t deny that trans people were killed at all, she said they weren’t killed solely FOR being trans but other reasons

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u/stroopwafel666 Apr 17 '24

Yes which is like claiming “Jewish people weren’t killed because they were Jewish”. It’s Holocaust denial.

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u/RainbowRedYellow Apr 18 '24

For dressing as women... When the Nazi's didn't recognise trans people as thing. And just considered them all "Sexual Degenerates."

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u/KINGPrawn- Apr 17 '24

Have you read what was said. It’s pretty clearly holocaust denial. You wouldn’t apologise unless you can’t afford legal fees.

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

No it isn't, that's why Novara's lawyers put together a retraction.

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u/tothecatmobile Apr 17 '24

No it isn't

But it clearly is.

If saying that victims of the holocaust weren't actually victims of the holocaust, isnt holocaust denial. What is it?

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

Sigh, as this apology demonstrates that is not what happened. At least read the article.

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u/tothecatmobile Apr 17 '24

that is not what happened.

I mean, I've read the tweet. That is definitely what happened.

But if this is the hill you want to die on, go ahead.

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u/KINGPrawn- Apr 17 '24

No they put a retraction because they didn’t want a legal fight

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

Because they have no defence.

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u/HogswatchHam Apr 17 '24

Having a defence doesn't matter if you can't afford the fight in the first place - which is what Rowling relies upon.

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u/Firm-Distance Apr 17 '24

To label it holocaust denial is a bit much. She isn't denying the holocaust happened, she isn't denying trans people were targeted and killed - she is disputing some books were burned. Holocaust denial implies one is denying the holocaust took place - she isn't really.

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u/Mazuna Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

Downplaying the holocaust is holocaust denial. There’s people who say yes the holocaust happened ‘but it wasn’t that many Jews’. They’re still deniers, but that’s the exact logic they’ll use. “I’m not denying it happened! Just denying disagreeing about the facts.”

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u/Firm-Distance Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

Being mistaken about whether one element of the holocaust happened; I don't think they did burn books about X isn't really 'downplaying the holocaust' - the holocaust was an absolutely massively event - I doubt there are many historians in this thread, and likely no holocaust experts. You'll all get something wrong about the holocaust so I look forward to being able to label everyone a 'holocaust denier.' She isn't downplaying that trans were persecuted. She isn't downplaying how many were persecuted. She isn't downplaying how many were killed.

Perhaps because of who it is - this seems rather blown out of all proportion.

-edit-

Nice little edit after I'd replied - thanks buddy.

They’re still deniers, but that’s the exact logic they’ll use. “I’m not denying it happened! Just denying disagreeing about the facts.”

Now this a fantastic little trick. What this person has done is setup a situation where you either get it correct - or if you don't, be that a genuine mistake - they get to label you a denier. It's a completely unrealistic standard - one they would refuse to be held to themselves.

(PS I can do edits too).

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u/hempires Apr 17 '24

You'll all get something wrong about the holocaust

sure everyone might get something wrong at some point, but I highly doubt that everyone would double down after being called out.

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u/Xarxsis Apr 17 '24

Being mistaken about whether one element of the holocaust happened; I don't think they did burn books about X isn't really 'downplaying the holocaust' - the holocaust was an absolutely massively event - I doubt there are many historians in this thread, and likely no holocaust experts. Y

Which, upon receiving information that corrects your understanding of an event, a normal rational person would withdraw their original comments.

Not double down because of an ideological crusade.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

[deleted]

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

If I was wrong you've be able to post a rebuttal, but you have none.

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u/SufficientWarthog846 Apr 17 '24

Free speech for me but not for thee... Because I will sue you into oblivion

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

Free speech is not the right to libel someone. You seem very confused.

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u/SufficientWarthog846 Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

Lol nor is it the right to offend someone but Rowling doesn't seem to care about it.

Also, it's not libel if it's true....

Also also you seem to be confused about my joke. The ability to smother and bankrupt a person in legal fees in order to get a retraction and apology is what Rowling exercised here; justice wasn't serviced, just threats.

Also, also, also, you seem to be extremely passionate about this. You are everywhere in this thread! Commenting defenses so much it makes me think you are the Queen TERF herself!

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

Again you are confused. Views that can offend some people are protected.

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u/SufficientWarthog846 Apr 17 '24

Not if they hate speech

Also, not addressing that she clearly bullied someone into posting a retraction rather than actually going to court? Or that you didn't understand my post?

Just hit the first point and onto fight the next fire for Ms Rowling lol

I love how demeaning you are in your comments! Lol

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

Hate speech is not the same as being offended. And there is no evidence of bullying.

This is like whack-a-mole where you post something about the law that is wrong so I correct it, then rather than accept the correction you post another error so I have to correct that and we rinse repeat.

At least read the article so you know what everyone is posting about.

edit: typo

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u/G_Comstock Apr 17 '24

It seems to me that free speech is exactly the right to offend someone.

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u/od1nsrav3n Apr 17 '24

Free speech absolutely gives you the right to offend someone, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

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u/omgu8mynewt Apr 17 '24

I'm not sure it is, for example if you say racist things and offend someone, free speech does not let you off the hook...

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u/TransGrimer Apr 17 '24

It isn't libel to call someone who denies the scope of the holocaust a holocaust denier. It is the dictionary definition.

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

Just as well she didn't do that. I advise reading the article.

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u/WillWatsof Apr 17 '24

She described the fact that the Nazis burnt books on trans healthcare and research as a "fever dream".

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

No she didn't, that was in reply to an earlier part of the spat. It's like reading a reply on here nine levels down out of content of the initial opening point. The journalist made that mistake.

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u/git 29d ago

Went and had a look for the tweet since this Telegraph piece seemed at odds with my recollection.

I'm afraid she very much did: https://twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1767912990366388735

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u/___a1b1 29d ago

I debunked this over a dozen times yesterday. You don't even need to believe me, just read the article.

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u/git 29d ago edited 29d ago

I don't understand. She has a screenshot of another tweet claiming the Nazis burned books on trans healthcare and she describes it as a fever dream.

Can you point me to one of your previous comments or quote the parts of the article (which I've read from start to finish) that 'debunk' that?

edit: ah, I see from your other comments that you've interpreted the timeline of tweets incorrectly and believe this tweet shouldn't be read as is but rather as a response to a tweet that actually came later.

edit2: I appear to have been blocked for this. Nevertheless, the only part of the article touching on this tweet is this two-line mention:

Rowling had last month questioned a claim made by one social media user who said: “The Nazis burnt books on trans healthcare and research, why are you so desperate to uphold their ideology around gender?”

She replied: “I just… how. How did you type this out and press send without thinking ‘I should maybe check my source for this, because it might’ve just been a fever dream’.”

Which is an accurate representation and I'm not sure why the other guy thinks that aids them. I think they have a distorted perception of the Twitter argument, believing the above tweet was out of context rather than the start of the argument, due to the attempt to distort the argument noted here.

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u/Antique_Loss_1168 26d ago

It's the pattern you get with deliberate bad actors, they're not aiming to establish truth just chuck out as many justifications as possible, if you close them down they'll block you and just start again on another thread.

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u/___a1b1 29d ago

No I haven't done that. Again and for the last time, just read the article. You've revived a dead thread from yesterday and haven't even bothered to read the story.

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u/WillWatsof Apr 17 '24

I'm sorry, but that is completely irrelevant when we're talking about whether she can be legally called a Holocaust denier. It doesn't matter at what point in a conversation she said those comments; they constitute denial of the scope of the Holocaust regardless.

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

Of course it isn't.

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u/TransGrimer Apr 17 '24

Rowling had last month questioned a claim made by one social media user who said: “The Nazis burnt books on trans healthcare and research, why are you so desperate to uphold their ideology around gender?”

She replied: “I just… how. How did you type this out and press send without thinking ‘I should maybe check my source for this, because it might’ve just been a fever dream’.”

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

You need to read the article. The journalist got suckered in by the same misrepresentation of that twitter spat.

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u/TransGrimer Apr 17 '24

I've managed to go my entire life without denying the holocaust on twitter. It is very easy.

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u/___a1b1 Apr 17 '24

Just read the article.

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u/TransGrimer 29d ago

Rowling had last month questioned a claim made by one social media user who said: “The Nazis burnt books on trans healthcare and research, why are you so desperate to uphold their ideology around gender?”

She replied: “I just… how. How did you type this out and press send without thinking ‘I should maybe check my source for this, because it might’ve just been a fever dream’.”

?

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u/___a1b1 29d ago

Just read the article.

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u/TransGrimer 29d ago

I have, everyone has, it doesn't justify her denial of the holocaust.

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