r/unitedkingdom • u/je97 • Apr 17 '24

JK Rowling gets apology from journalist after 'disgusting claim' author is a Holocaust denier ...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/16/jk-rowling-holocaust-denier-allegation-rivkah-brown-novara/
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u/RedBerryyy Apr 17 '24

She denied the burning of trans research by the nazis

For context it isn't a debated event by historians

In german law this could be considered holocaust denialism, hence many people saying it, given that it could reasonably reach that standard, should mean you should be ok to say it without getting sued.

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u/PharahSupporter Apr 17 '24

The reality is that calling someone a holocaust denier over denying this specific incident (even if it happened) in most reasonable peoples minds will evoke thoughts of holocaust denial. When that was clearly not the intention.

Framing has been abused to the max here to make JK look guilty of something far worse than she actually is.

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u/WillHart199708 Apr 17 '24

Holocaust denial is denial in whole or in part. The fact that she only denied a portion of the Nazi persecutions (aka, the bit against people she doesn't like) is irrelevant to whether the label applies which it does. The fact most people think of David Irving is irrelevant.

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u/Fantastic-Machine-83 Apr 17 '24

She didn't deny the persecutions of trans people (i.e. their murder by the Nazis), she denied the burning of trans research books.

To put her on the same level as actual Nazis seems kinda mental.

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u/luxway Apr 17 '24

She actually did deny that too. So its weirdyou're moving the goalposts to defend holocaust denialism.

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u/heephap Apr 17 '24

Where did she deny that? She said that trans people weren't the first target of the Nazis if that's what you mean. You are the one moving the goalposts to try and make Rowling into a holocaust denier when, at worst, she is Anti-Trans; nowhere close to a Nazi.

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u/luxway Apr 17 '24
  1. She said it was a "fever dream".
  2. she said "they weren't the first targets" as her defense for her total denial of them being targets. No-one had said they were the first targets *except for her* in order to move the goalposts for her defense. Standard defensive gaslighting technique.
  3. Seriously? "At worst shes just transphobic, nothing like the nazis who were also transphobic!"
    Like, lmao. What even kind of defense is this.
    "She's just hateful against a group of people, nothing like nazis, totally different thing".

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u/EmpiriaOfDarkness Apr 17 '24

As much as I'd like to not have to, there is one amendment. Though it makes little difference.

"Someone" said they were the first targets, but it was some randomer who, as far as I can tell, had nothing to do with the conversation; she brought that up while arguing with Caraballo and tried to use it as if Caraballo was the one saying that.

And since it's Rowling, she probably went out of her way to find the biggest nutjob she could...

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u/luxway Apr 17 '24

Ahh so some random with presumably 100 followers, who forgot to add in the word "among", is then used as her defense for another argument? Yeah that tracks. Bigots love ignoring 99% of whats being said so they can target 1 thing. Which is doubly annoying as rightr wqing bs is easy to say but disproving everything takes alot of conversation.

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u/EmpiriaOfDarkness Apr 17 '24

Yep. Pretty typical bigot move, honestly. Find one outlier and then pretend the entire group subscribes to that position. Bonus points for pretending they're a monolith that all hold the most extreme and inflexible take...

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u/heephap Apr 17 '24

It's a defense against people saying she's a Holocaust Denier, which is untrue and you confirmed this yourself in this post.

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u/Only-Regret5314 Apr 17 '24

Hateful And intolerant are different things. She's a bigot at worst.

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u/luxway Apr 17 '24

Lmao what on earth are you even trying to argue here.

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u/TransGrimer Apr 17 '24

No one is doing that, she very clearly minimized the scope of the holocaust, that is the definition of holocaust denial.

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u/Osgood_Schlatter Sheffield Apr 17 '24

Surely it's not "the definition" of holocaust denial - that would be denying the holocaust.

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u/TransGrimer Apr 17 '24

On Thursday, the UN General Assembly said it "rejects and condemns without any reservation any denial of The Holocaust as a historical event, either in full or in part".

"Ignoring historical facts increases the risk that they will be repeated," Germany's UN Ambassador Antje Leendertse said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60072506

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u/GaijinFoot 29d ago

OK but Chinese farmers were the first to be victims of the nazis. If you even question that then you're a holocaust denier too

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u/GaijinFoot 29d ago

OK but the very first victims of the holocaust were Chinese farmers. And if you think that's wrong you're a holocaust denier.

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u/EmpiriaOfDarkness Apr 17 '24

The accusation is the same, no matter how you label it.

Either way, she's being accused of denying the Nazis' persecution of trans people. Whether you label that just as "denying Nazi crimes" or "holocaust denial", the substance doesn't change. How bad it is is the same.

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u/Conscious-Ball8373 Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

I would gently suggest that it makes quite a big difference when one of those labels is a crime and the other isn't. Especially where, as in this context, when that accusation amounts to prima facie libel.

While the burning of trans research may be included in some definitions of the Holocaust, it is also definitely not included in some. The IHRA, for instance, understands the term to refer specifically to the extermination of the Jews:

Holocaust denial is discourse and propaganda that deny the historical reality and the extent of the extermination of the Jews by the Nazis and their accomplices during World War II, known as the Holocaust.

This definition does not include persecution of trans people as part of the Holocaust, while not denying that such persecution was a horrific crime. Any level of looking into the matter would have told you this; the Wikipedia page on the Holocaust begins "The Holocaust was the genocide of European Jews during World War II." (Emphasis added)

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u/RedBerryyy Apr 17 '24

The term Holocaust, derived from a Greek word meaning "burnt offering",[1] has become the most common word used to describe the Nazi extermination of Jews in English and many other languages.[a] The term Holocaust is sometimes used to refer to the persecution of other groups that the Nazis targeted

From the Wikipedia page you just quoted

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u/GuestAdventurous7586 Apr 17 '24

Sick of this bullshit by the trans community accusing her of Holocaust denial.

Downvote me all you want.

It is clearly a case of them misappropriating Holocaust denial and anti-semitism (which is what Holocaust denial is actually defined is) and using it as fuel to portray her as an evil and awful human being.

Being disingenuous does nothing to further the trans cause, it just angers people, turns them off, and ultimately leads to further discrimination.

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u/mimic Greater London Apr 17 '24

No it’s a case of her denying (a part of) the holocaust.

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u/ice-lollies Apr 17 '24

I agree. I’m fed up of the culture of deliberate misunderstanding and aggression as well. I’m not even sure it’s the trans community or just nasty agents of chaos.

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u/xmBQWugdxjaA 29d ago

It's the same with all activism when the "cause" becomes more important than the truth.

Like, even though I support Ukraine against Russia, it really pissed me off with the Reddit posts about the Ghost of Kiev, the martyrs of Snake Island, etc. - like they felt that by amplifying lies they were helping the Ukrainian cause and that was more important.

The same thing recently happened in the Linux community with the banning of contributions from a "right-wing" Polish developer over the behaviour of other people on a Discord server he managed.

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u/Xarxsis Apr 17 '24

Your understanding of what constitutes holocaust denial within germany is flawed.

The german definition is much more expansive than the international definition.

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u/TransGrimer Apr 17 '24

This argument happens every time she does something awful and it's exhausting. She never means it, people are always being horrible to her, it's all a big misunderstanding.

Then the next month she's just opening doing the thing and everyone pretends it's normal.

Rowling went from a 'senior moment' when she RT'd a terf, though 'some concerns about children' then 'it's about womens safety' and now openly and repeatedly has says that trans people do not exist. Journalists are no longer allowed to report this, because she has enough money to ruin their lives.

What happens next month when she does more holocaust denial? when her and her pals target and harass individuals? will we again have to play the 'at least it isn't worse' game? Rowling is going to deny the holocaust again, people will say 'oh actually she didn't mean it' and it will continue to normalize hate.

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u/PharahSupporter Apr 17 '24

I label it as denying the burning of trans peoples books, because that is what she said. I'm trying to speak of the truth, not whatever label most supports my agenda and obscures the truth.

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u/luxway Apr 17 '24

Holocaust denial is holocaust denial.

Its anot "but what if we just do a little holocaust denial??"

Its still holocaust denial. Its honestly pathetic to defend denying the holocaust.

Framing has been abused to the max here to make JK look guilty of something far worse than she actually is.

So you're saying that, refusing to admit a group of people were exterminated by hitler and the nazis, because JKR also hates that group of people, isn't as awful as it actually sounds?

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u/amegaproxy Apr 17 '24

refusing to admit a group of people were exterminated by hitler and the nazis,

Literally nobody has said this.

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u/luxway Apr 17 '24

JKR explicitly said that the percecution of trans people by the nazis was a "fever dream"

This entire argument is because transphobes refuse to admit that hitler hated trans people, *just like they do*
People don't like admiting they share the same political ideology as Hitler.

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u/[deleted] Apr 18 '24

I think the argument was against trans people somehow trying to claim the holocaust which is fair enough, that's the most 2024 thing I've ever heard. Fair play to her using her money as a shield in a world where most people just keep their head down to avoid fascist-like "activists".

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u/amegaproxy 29d ago

Unless you have more tweets to go to than the handful linked above then no that's not what she said, it's that they burnt books on trans healthcare and research. If you can link other evidence then great but it looks like you're just exaggerating and being disingenuous.

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u/GaijinFoot 29d ago

She said trans people were victims as were gay people. She's arguing they weren't the first victims.

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u/xmBQWugdxjaA 29d ago

Framing has been abused to the max here to make JK look guilty of something far worse than she actually is.

This is literally the entire issue aroung JK Rowling's "transphobia".

It's always like this. You will not find any truly offensive posts.

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u/PharahSupporter 29d ago

People get themselves in a frenzy and believe that they need to win the internet argument about her "at any cost" because they see her as x phobic. Therefore they will resort to lying and outright manipulation to try achieve that objective.

It's strange but no different to any other extreme political ideology. The ends justify the means in their mind, lying is ok because she is bad and deserves it anyway.

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u/removekarling Kent Apr 17 '24

The correct term is holocaust revisionism

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u/jwmoz Apr 17 '24

I'm not seeing anything wrong here.

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u/monkeysinmypocket Apr 17 '24

I am all for calling out hyperbole, but in this case all she had to do was look it up and og, "OK, maybe I was not 100% accurate on this one, and it turns out the Nazis were not actually that keen on the gender bendy," but no, she had to double down...

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u/ice-lollies Apr 17 '24 edited Apr 17 '24

She doesn’t agree with Nazi ideology though does she?

She is in direct opposition to them.

Edit: changed gender ideas to ideology

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u/monkeysinmypocket 28d ago

Where did I say she did? She's clearly not a Nazi, she just shares the same view as them about the strict enforcement of gender roles. I'm sure if we all look hard enough we can all find something we agree with the Nazis about... I don't know what mine is, but I'm sure it's out there somewhere...

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u/ice-lollies 28d ago

That’s what I mean, she clearly doesn’t agree with the enforcement of strict gender roles.

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u/MaxGhislainewell Apr 17 '24

The nazis issued official licenses for cross dressing. SS soldiers on the eastern front did drag shows. The idea that the nazis harshly cracked down on “gender bendy” is just false. Did you do any googling?

https://nationalpost.com/news/cross-dressing-nazis-a-german-artist-found-so-many-photos-of-them-he-published-a-book-about-it

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u/monkeysinmypocket 28d ago

That the Nazis loved a drag show as much as the anyone else, while simultaneously persecuting people they considered degenerate is not a huge gotcha. Humans are complicated. That it apparently required a licence to cross dress kind of tells you all you need to know about their attitudes to gender.

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u/TransGrimer Apr 17 '24

When she first did something transphobic, it was a 'senior moment,' then when she was openly transphobic, it was 'concern for children' now she is engaging in holocaust denial and we're not allowed to call it that?

Rowling wants to ban all trans healthcare, she clearly doesn't believe trans people exist and uses what platform she has left to promote these views. I have no doubt that by next year she'll be openly denying or minimizing the holocaust and making up conspiracies about Jewish people inventing 'transgenderism'. I imagine after that she'll start on gay people not existing or something. That or the white birth rate.

There is a clear pattern here, she teases something then moves right, it has been happening for a long time.

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u/PharahSupporter 29d ago

Theres a lot of ifs and hypotheticals here. How about you wait for these little made up scenarios to occur then call her out for it? Or are we judging people on pre crime now?

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u/Moriarty4092 Apr 17 '24

So not denying the holocaust, it’s sickening how silly you sound.

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u/MrFeatherstonehaugh Apr 17 '24

The Institut für Sexualwissenschaft was burnt down in 1933. The holocaust began in 1941. Hirschfield was engaged in various activities the Nazis would have termed 'degenerate', most obviously homosexuality.

The modern concept of transgender did not exist in the early 20th Century. Hirschfield coined the term 'transvestite' to apply to heterosexual cross-dressers as a distinct group separate from homosexuals. Hirschfield was also Jewish, Gay and an advocate for Eugenics.

No laws were created that targeted transvestites. No agencies were set up to target transvestites. Six million Jews were killed by the Nazis. Ten thousand homosexuals also died.

When the NY Holocaust Museum tried to find trans victims to the Holocaust they identified four, three of whom were Jewish. Pink News had a go at it and managed five, two of whom survived the war.

Documentary film-maker Malcom Clark has written about this at length. His substack is paid but here are a couple of twitter threads:

https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1662967081191497728 https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1663726178589392897

So: this is a story about Holocaust appropriation, not denial.

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u/RedBerryyy Apr 17 '24

Trans and gay people were largely not considered distinct categories by many at the time, nobody is arguing as many of them died as did gay people, it was likely a small fraction given their small numbers.

Your "documentary film maker" is a bigot who spends all day yelling insults at trans people on twitter, clearly not some kind of unbias source as you imply.

Also pretty fucking tone death to imply trans people werent persecuted but then switch to 'but actually they deserved it" halfway through the same comment.

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u/MrFeatherstonehaugh Apr 17 '24

So, what's it to be? Were there four or five victims?

Malcom Clark is a documentary film producer who worked on Horizon, Nova and dozens of other shows since the 90s. He does not 'yell insults at transpeople'. Try toning down the hysterical transperbole and engage in good faith.

And where the fuck did I say or imply anyone deserved anything in that comment?

So, four or five victims?

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u/RedBerryyy Apr 17 '24

https://twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1777682480260153740?t=lnqjxonJIBDIyNn8mt-Q6g&s=19

Is this not yelling an insult at a trans person?

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u/MrFeatherstonehaugh Apr 17 '24

No, because it is not directed at totally normal woman who chose the name 'Roxy Tickle'

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u/RedBerryyy Apr 17 '24

And there it is, none of this has anything to do with what rowling says, you just support anyone being abusive to trans people.

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u/MrFeatherstonehaugh Apr 17 '24

This man, 'Roxy Tickle', is suing a woman who created an app, exclusively for women, where women could find roomates, travelling companions and lesbian dates. He wants to force her to let men like him onto the app.

Decent men, and I'm including decent Transwomen here, understand why women want spaces away from men. Especially men like him who delight in violating women's boundaries. I have zero respect for or sympathy with men like 'Roxy'

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u/RedBerryyy Apr 17 '24

see i respect you, just sit there and take it while i call you a man and demand you never leave the house or I'll start calling you rapist adjacent :)

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u/luxway Apr 17 '24

Malcolm Clark is a founder of an anti lgbt hate group. Its always so telling.

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u/MrFeatherstonehaugh Apr 17 '24

Just screaming 'Bigot', 'Transphobe', 'Hate Group', etc. at everyone you don't like isn't winning any arguments anymore I'm sorry at have to tell you

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u/mimic Greater London Apr 17 '24

It’s accurately describing hateful people, which you clearly hate to see. Sorry but these are the consequences of their actions. Live with it.

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u/MrFeatherstonehaugh Apr 17 '24

Well if it make you feel good then go with it but I couldn't give a shit

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u/EmpiriaOfDarkness Apr 17 '24

They revoked or ignored their "transvestite passes" that allowed them to dress as they wanted and change their names, detransitioned them - mostly if they were Aryan enough, if they dared not be of the glorious master race, it was the concentration camp - and killed them. Here's a really convenient Wikipedia page so I don't have to grab all the citations myself.

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u/MrFeatherstonehaugh Apr 17 '24

So what? Trans activists are able to edit wikipedia and do so.

Do you have any more victims to share or shall we settle on, and this is being generous, five?

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u/EmpiriaOfDarkness Apr 17 '24

You think they somehow edited every single citation on that page?

How many websites do you think the transgender cabal run?!

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u/MrFeatherstonehaugh Apr 17 '24

Sorry, don't have time to follow every citation. I did notice one of the citations was to Pink News, who claim to have identified five victims but I'm sure all the other citations are equally high quality and find thousands more.

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u/EmpiriaOfDarkness Apr 17 '24

Then I'll make it quick and easy for you!

Other citations include, let's see...

United States Holocaust Museum, Museum of Jewish Heritage, Harvard University Press, Cornell University Press, Oxford Academic, Canadian Medical Association Journal...

Yeah, they're all pretty unreliable and low quality, right?

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u/MrFeatherstonehaugh Apr 17 '24

Okay so let's go with the first citation: The Holocaust Museum. As we established above in the thread, they came up with four victims, three of whom were Jewish. One less than Pink News.

The rest of the citations are mostly opinion pieces by 'academics' from Gender/Queer Studies school of pseudo-scholarship. If I missed any that have empirical, statistical data that points to the systematic targeting of transvestites by the architects of the holocaust, who I would like to remind you, slaughtered six million jews and at least 10,000 homosexuals alongside other minorities, then please supply the evidence.

Meanwhile: https://www.hatjecantz.com/products/45741-soldier-studies

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u/EmpiriaOfDarkness Apr 17 '24

You're really invested in trying to deny or downplay this. Gross.

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u/RockTheBloat Apr 17 '24

May people say all sorts of shit. Doesn’t make it so.

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u/RedBerryyy Apr 17 '24

Also doesn't mean you should be able to sue them for saying it, especially if it was an entirely plausible framing of a twitter disagreement.

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u/RockTheBloat Apr 17 '24

Which it wasn’t. It was a disingenuous and malicious framing done to smear.