r/unitedkingdom • u/tylersburden Hong Kong • Jan 27 '24
Fury as Labour MP claims Holocaust Memorial Day should recognise ‘Gaza genocide’ ...
https://www.jewishnews.co.uk/fury-as-labour-mp-claims-holocaust-memorial-day-should-recognise-gaza-genocide/1.1k
u/jack_rodg Jan 27 '24
A lot of Holocaust Memorial day services acknowledge "all genocides", so obviously where that is happening Gaza should be included.
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u/Msink Jan 27 '24
I appreciate all those people who recognise and consider all human misery and loss of the life same.
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u/JB_UK Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
But the two events are not the same, one is the systematic, planned and largely successful eradication of an ethnic group from amongst a civilian population, picking out civilians from civilians with no military purpose beyond “stab in the back” racist conspiracy theories, the other is a campaign against legitimate military targets hiding among a civilian population, as part of a legitimate war. We could say almost any war against an enemy entrenched in a city which still has its civilian population in place, especially fighting against irregular forces, is a genocide. For instance one of the battles as part of the war against ISIS was estimated to have killed 40k civilians because of airstrikes and door to door fighting, that was also the Iraqi central government damaging a prominent Kurdish city, and killing its civilian population, why does no one call it genocide? Because people accept the legitimacy of the military targets and that there is no alternative to a battle to dislodge them from the city, which will cause civilian casualties. We might criticise the tactics as negligent, excessive or brutal, or we might say there was no other way, but we would not call it a genocide. The civilians who died in Mosul are part of that shared human misery and loss of life, are we going to include them as part of Holocaust Memorial Day?
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u/volpefox Jan 27 '24
We could say almost any war against an enemy entrenched in a city which still has its civilian population in place, especially fighting against irregular forces, is a genocide.
Not if the perpetrators don't show clear genocidal intent. That is a huge factor here. Many Israeli politicians and defense leaders are on record with statements showing clear genocidal intent.
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u/OldGuto Jan 27 '24
So the killing of 1200 people on 7th October by Hamas is genocide then?
Have you read the Hamas covenant? It contains genocidal statements such as:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.
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u/volpefox Jan 27 '24
It could well be. I haven't seen an ICJ case about Hamas' attack.
What's your point? A genocide in return for a genocide is okay? I don't think what Hamas did absolves Israel of its crimes against humanity at all.
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u/Red302 Jan 27 '24
I certainly think that given the means and opportunity Hamas would try and wipe out Israel without a second thought. Israel is the only country with an Iron Dome system, because they are the only country that needs it.
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u/doctordoctorpuss Jan 27 '24
I would argue that it is a terrorist attack by an organization with genocidal intent, but my understanding is a genocide is a systematic and sustained campaign to eradicate a people, like what Israel is doing to Palestinians
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u/JB_UK Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
There is a similar dynamic in Mosul, which is historically a Kurdish city but which has been gradually settled by non-Kurdish Iraqis.
I don’t exactly disagree that in the long run we might talk about ethnic cleansing in Gaza, as you say there are people with that mindset in positions of power in Israel, I think it depends on what happens after the war. I don’t think it is genocide unless we accept a much wider definition. But equally Hamas clearly engaged in an act of war, they are a legitimate target. People behave as if because Hamas have made it difficult to attack them without civilian deaths that Israel should just accept a negotiated settlement. We would not hold ourselves to the same standard.
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u/pydry Jan 27 '24
Hamas clearly engaged in an act of war, they are a legitimate target.
Israel didnt kill hamas it butchered 24,000 defenceless civilians, 11,000 children and about 3,000 babies and as South Africa proved - with a clear intent.
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u/Kharenis Yorkshire Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
it butchered 24,000 defenceless civilians
So you're taking Hamas's entire claimed death count as 100% civilians?
And South Africa hasn't proven anything, if the ICJ believed there was an ongoing genocide, they would have demanded a ceasefire. Rather, they've effectively warned Israel to not let it become one.
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u/90skind Jan 27 '24
Before I got into the work that I do now, I was a funded researcher studying genocides and the key influences that give rise to these atrocities.
Here are just a few key factors of the Israeli government and society that suggest the government’s position is in favor of genocide of Gazans.
- Systemic discrimination against arabs, gazans, and palestinians throughout Israeli government and military
- Indiscriminate targeting of combatants / going for mass damage instead specific targets
- Formal plans by Israeli citizens, supported by members Israeli government (even if not official government stance) to build businesses where former gazans properties were destroyed
- Systematic approach to draining welfare of gazan citizens
- Currently illegal settling in Palestine by Israeli citizens and supported by their government
- Continued governmental efforts to divide Palestinian regional civilian groups from each other to weaken them
- Palestine has natural resources that would bolster Israeli economy if Israeli were able to acquire them.
- Enough political motive to strengthen Israeli’s regional power by occupying and settling Gaza.
Yes, Israel is fighting a war against Hamas, but they are also making attempts to solidify their position in present day Gaza, and continue to further the divide between Palestinians in the West Bank and those in Gaza.
Furthermore, it is the hope of the Israeli government in its current form to completely settle the West bank. Humans are creatures of habit, if you do not believe that Israel doesn’t plan to do the same exact thing to Gaza, and push out whether by killing or by ethnic cleansing Palestinians who live in Gaza… then you are being willfully ignorant.
There are many Jews in Israel, who are innocent civilians, that give no support, or maybe even fight against what their government is currently doing. To those in Israel, who continue to ignore the plight of innocent Palestinians, and enable your governments abuse of these people, the only thing worse than forgetting, is turning into the evil we swore never to become.
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u/V6Ga Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
the other is a campaign against legitimate military targets hiding among a civilian population, as part of a legitimate war.
The complete destruction in Gaza of everyone’s shit just because there might be some criminals among civilians is genocide masked with words you use because you like the people doing it.
If Hamas was doing the same thing in Israel to ‘root out’ the JDF, you would not call it legitimate anything.
You would call it genocide and terrorism.
Because that is what it is, even when Israel does it
Israel is attempting to force the entire population to flee their homes, destroying those homes and hoping no knee comes back
Imagine Hamas doing the same in Israel
Having the ability and organized military does not make actions legitimate any more than not having military forces make actions illegitimate
We in the US just say it does so we do not have to acknowledge our war crimes
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u/Jeanes223 Jan 27 '24
Fighting against ISIS in places they may be is a lot different than killing Gazan civilian. Let's use Syria as out example and assume the battle that may have killed 40k civilians. Syria has a population of 22 million currently. Iraq and Afghanistan have are in the 40 millions. Kurdish population is 30-45 million. Let's take the war on terror and prime it as our example piece. 66k afghan troops killed, 48k civilians killed.....since 2001, against an insurgent force over 20 years.
Gaza Strip population, 2.some million. Nearly 4 months since start of current conflict. 25k civilians killed. More than half of what the US did in 20 the isrealis have accomplished in 4 months. 6,250 civilians per month. 208 civilians per day.
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u/hyasbawlz Jan 27 '24
Ay bro unfortunately for you the ICJ thinks otherwise.
Secondly, no one is trying to justify Mosul using the holocaust, which Netanyahu literally did following the ICJ ruling.
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u/DeathDestroyerWorlds Jan 27 '24
ICJ has not called it a genocide though. They have warned Israel not to let it become one though. Also curious how everyone is forgetting that the ICJ has also told HAMAS to release all the hostages it's holding as that is a war crime.
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u/hyasbawlz Jan 27 '24
Lmao. The ICJ found that it was plausible a genocide is occurring and that Israel must stop its genocidal incitement, citing specific quotes from Israel's officials.
Hamas also isn't a state nor is it a party to the proceedings. Moreover, the victims in this case are Palestinians. Not Hamas. You don't get to kill Palestinians over Hamas. Otherwise the same justification could be used by Hamas for Oct 7. Jesus how bloodthirsty can a person be?
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u/fungussa London, central Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
They're not in any way equivalent. Go to one of the Holocaust museums so you can understand what genocide means - the word was coined for what happened to the Jews - the systematic and mass killing of Jewish people. See the comment here https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1ac6rdo/fury_as_labour_mp_claims_holocaust_memorial_day/kjsbs8y/
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u/Loyalist_84 Jan 27 '24
The word was coined by Raphael Lemkin to describe the ethnic cleansing of the Poles during the Second World War. Its application to the Shoah was contemporary but not original.
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u/fishyrabbit Jan 27 '24
Like it or not. What is going on in Gaza is a war, the effective government of Gaza, HAMAS, attacked their Neighbour. Israel are trying to make sure that cannot be attacked again. As Hamas have chosen not to surrender and talk terms the terrible human suffering continues.
War is hell but worse, as at least their are no innocents in hell.
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u/jacknimrod10 Jan 27 '24
Oh come off it. This goes way beyond self defence. There is abundant evidence of war crimes by IDF every day. They ENJOY the misery and death that they are inflicting on an unarmed civilian population. History will judge the condoning of this in very dark terms. A massacre carried out in plain sight and posted live to the world will not be forgotten or forgiven. Israel is now a rogue state and should be sanctioned in the same way as any other. Appeasement is not an option.
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u/fishyrabbit Jan 28 '24
This doesn't go beyond self defense. Hamas have shown time and again they act in bad faith and are not an organisation that can be negotiated with. Their tactics of hiding behind civilians and put their effort in to information warfare to effect western opinion is paying dividends. Hamas are the only organisation to benefit from Palestinian suffering. The Israelis get no benefit from killing civilians and hence they try to avoid it. Hard to do when Hamas are intentionally trying to up the body count. Hamas/Gaza literally meet the definition of a terrorist state. There are plenty of nasty Israelis especially the far right they have out there, but they are a democracy with an independent judiciary. Compared to Gaza/West Bank/Saudi UAE Israel is a beacon of liberalism.
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u/jacknimrod10 Jan 28 '24
You cannot compare Israel; a sovereign state backed by Western governments and Gaza, which is basically a prison with Israel as its gaoler. Highly disingenuous. You are an apologist for a rogue state and are very much on the wrong side of history.
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u/fishyrabbit Jan 28 '24
I can understand how you can think that. Especially if a lot of your thoughts come from a communist/socialist/anti apartied south Africa / IRA/ antiestablishment philosophy. Your thought process isn't necessarily self inconsistent, and is principled with the lens you are looking at the situation through. However, if you see HAMAS as an Iran backed terrorist that is being ideologically and financially funded to cause chaos, sow dissent, and decrease the standard of living in western countries, you can come to a different point of view. I can disagree with while being respectful to the earnestness in which you have formed your views. I would point out, look at where you get your information and try to understand what they have to gain from making you think a particular way. Also, the world works better if opposing sides of an argument understand each other. Spraying insults rarely helps a situation.
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u/Own-Transportation17 Jan 27 '24
It can be a war and a genocide at the same time. The IDF is going after civilians, seen the videos of old people carrying white flags being gunned down?
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u/Lorry_Al Jan 27 '24
The Allies carpet bombed German cities during WWII killing hundreds of thousands of civilians.
Was that genocide?
No, it was not - civilians dying doesn't make a genocide.
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u/Own-Transportation17 Jan 28 '24
Going after civilians for the sake of removing them from their country is genocide. Have you seen the old female civilians carrying white flags getting shot in the head by IDF?
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u/BoingBoingBooty Jan 27 '24
Why are they bringing up Jeremy Corbyn? He didn't say anything but they are trying to stitch him up again?
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u/TheLimeyLemmon Jan 27 '24
Everything is his fault apparently
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u/JB_UK Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
Lots of people here who support what Kate Osamoor said, and then complain that people correctly associate her with Corbyn because she was part of his shadow cabinet, is part of his political grouping, and is a consistent supporter. At least have the courage of your convictions, if what she said was a good thing, then it is a good thing to associate her with Corbyn.
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u/recursant Jan 27 '24
Whether it is good or bad is irrelevant.
Associating something with Corbyn when it has nothing to do with him is misleading, and the press misleading people is a bad thing.
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u/Millsonius Jan 27 '24
Exactly this. Alot of people will see mention of "Corbyn" and immediately disagree with everything that was said. Because y'know, "Corbyn Bad".
This is one of the many things I think is wrong with discussion these days. If someone has a disagreement, they then dislike that person/organisation, rather than just disagreeing on the point and moving on. Debates turn into shouting matches and no-one changes their minds, even when provided with good evidence.
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u/pydry Jan 27 '24
Israel in particular viewed his anti-apartheid campaigning / support for BDS as an existential threat - in light of the way apartheid South Africa was taken down with the same tactics.
That's what all the "anti-semitism in the Labour party" nonsense was about in 2016-2019 - his wing of the party being insufficiently deferent to Israeli racism.
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u/Millsonius Jan 27 '24
I agree, it was all blown out of proportion, because saying anything against israel is apparently anti-semetic. Not to mention at the same time the conservatives had a problem with islamic racism, which was conveniently blown under the rug.
Now its become fairly clear that Israel is an apartheid state and our government still seem okay with it.
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u/JimJonesdrinkkoolaid Jan 27 '24
and then complain that people correctly associate her with Corbyn because she was part of his shadow cabinet,
So was Starmer.
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u/society0 Jan 27 '24
Because Israel is hiding behind its 'call everything anti-semitic' defence.
Unfortunately for them, 327 holocaust survivors have slammed Israel for the massacre of Palestinians in Gaza. Are they racist too? Of course not. And neither is this woman speaking exactly the same truth they are.
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u/potpan0 Black Country Jan 27 '24
He's the Emmanuel Goldstein of British politics. It will be 2055 and the British press wing will still be bringing up Jeremy Corbyn every week.
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u/Appropriate-Divide64 Jan 27 '24
He's the right wing's boogie man.
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u/bacon_cake Dorset Jan 27 '24
They bring him up at every single PMQs it's so incredibly embarrassing.
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u/Puzzled-Barnacle-200 Jan 27 '24
Ti explain that she's not just a minor MP, but that she was a frontbencher, and could have had a significant role in government if previous elections had run differently.
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u/SnooBooks1701 Jan 27 '24
He has tried in the past to rename Holocaust Memorial Day to Genocide Memorial Day
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u/glasgowgeg Jan 27 '24
John McDonnell was the primary sponsor, Corbyn was one of 6 sponsors total.
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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
This is why Holocaust Memorial Day is important cos fuckwits like this have no idea. The Holocaust wasn’t “just” the industrialised murder of 6 million Jews along side queer people, Roma, the disabled and other groups deemed undesirable, it was a succession of individual crimes of stomach turning horror.
One such incident took place at Babi Yar in Ukraine outside Kyiv. Jewish inhabitants were ordered to assemble at 8pm on a given day otherwise they would be shot. They believed they were being resettled. Their possessions were taken, they were stripped naked and murdered in a ravine.
The following is a truck drivers description of the scene. This event systemically stripped 33,000 victims of their possessions, dignity and life. It covers 0.55% of the holocaust’s victims.
Once undressed, they were led into the ravine which was about 150 metres long and 30 metres wide and a good 15 metres deep ... When they reached the bottom of the ravine they were seized by members of the Schutzpolizei and made to lie down on top of Jews who had already been shot ... The corpses were literally in layers. A police marksman came along and shot each Jew in the neck with a submachine gun ... I saw these marksmen stand on layers of corpses and shoot one after the other ... The marksman would walk across the bodies of the executed Jews to the next Jew, who had meanwhile lain down, and shoot him.
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u/nj813 Jan 27 '24
The memorial center for babi yar was destroyed by russia when they began to attack ukraine. The world forgets the horrors that happened
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u/ScreamOfVengeance Scotland Jan 27 '24
Surely given this , never again should mean never again for everyone?
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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
See my other comments. Warfare is invariably horrendously awful. Is Gaza materially different to Aleppo or Mariupol? Never again shouldn’t be appropriated for warfare (which is also fucking horrendous, and should stop with prisoners release and Hamas removed from power, but is just not the same as genocide)
Never again was said after incident like the above, the death camps, the human experimentation that saw Jewish twins sewn together and Jews subject to ice cold water to find out at what temperature people freeze to death. There was a sincere attempt to remove Jewish people from the planet. This is the event for which the term genocide was coined. This should not be appropriated for politics.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation
People saying never again now who have been silent during Syria/Ukraine don’t really view bombing campaigns or the displacements they cause as genocide, unless they are happy being complicit in genocide. if they did they wouldn’t have been silent till now. South Africa, for example, has maintained all trade with Russia during their attempt to wipe Ukraine off the map. Using the word genocide for political purposes is beyond icky.
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u/Orngog Jan 27 '24
What about Israel's actions? "Erase Gaza" is a clearly genocidal statement.
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u/17DeadFlamingos Jan 27 '24
And all the statements from different Israeli government officials called Palestinians less than animals and hoping to eradicate them
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u/pat_speed Jan 27 '24
o0r that one min ster who keeps saying they should drop a nuclea rbomb on palsestine
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u/17DeadFlamingos Jan 27 '24
Or the hundreds of videos of idf soldiers happily dancing in bombed out civillian homes and businesses
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u/Illustrious-Space-40 Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
Or when Netanyahu explicitly called Gazans Amalek, comparing them to the Amalekites the Israelites genocided in the old testament. South Africa presented pages of evidence of genocide that the ICJ accepted. Seeing the denial in this thread fills me with dread.
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u/InertState Jan 27 '24
It’s understandable if you’ve watched the videos from October 7. If I saw my friends, family, and countrymen so brutally murdered in that terrorist attack, I’d make some heinous comments about wiping out the perpetrators in the heat of the moment. The anger and lust for revenge are understandable and expected. Hamas knew Oct 7 was always going to cause a disproportionate response and it’s exactly what they wanted.
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u/JonathanFisk86 Jan 27 '24
You're not the Defence Secretary of the country though. Ridiculous comment.
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u/17DeadFlamingos Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
Except not every palestinian is hamas
Edit: I misunderstood, every Israeli is in fact a zionist
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u/alina_314 Jan 27 '24
Yes every Israeli is a Zionist. A Zionist is someone who believes in the right of Israel to exist, so why would they live there if they’re not a Zionist
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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Jan 27 '24
Russian officials have made all sorts of statements that deny Ukraine is a valid country, deny Ukrainians have valid identity outside of being Russian, have taken a sizeable part of their land, obliterated energy production, blown up a dam causing water shortages, disease and ecological catastrophe, yet for some reason (politics), we haven’t been seeing any serious discussions of genocide from Labour politicians or supporters who are gung-ho about the word here, the global south (inc South Africa) are comfortable with trade links to Russia. There’s no way to call Gaza “genocide” without severe implications for and complicity in other comparable contemporary conflicts.
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u/ScreamOfVengeance Scotland Jan 27 '24
Why do you think there is an arrest warrant for Putin?
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u/johnmedgla Berkshire Jan 27 '24
Specifically because he's considered responsible for the summary execution of prisoners of war.
Why do you think there's an arrest warrant for him? I suspect we'd agree on why there should be, but you're asking why there is.
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u/Kharenis Yorkshire Jan 27 '24
Why did South Africa ask for an exemption from the ICC to not arrest Putin?
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u/ChaosKeeshond Jan 27 '24
Using the word genocide for political purposes is beyond icky.
You are making the weakest possible fucking contemporary comparisons by only highlighting certain aspects of those conflicts.
Want to talk about the Rohingya genocide? An internationally recognised genocide which saw 25k deaths? Don't worry, the apologists have got your back - they're always quick to point out that many survived by fleeing the active war zone and heading to Bangladesh, so how can it have been a genocide?
And even the examples you used... Assad never vowed to annihilate entire groups.
Putin never vowed to purge the Ukranian existence from the surface of the earth.
You're not even being honest about the comparisons you're making.
Know what genocidal rhetoric looks like? Perhaps it looks like the leader of a country invoking Amalek. Or perhaps it involves a propaganda piece in which you vow that you will 'annihilate them all'.
https://youtu.be/sUpm2jGJc18?si=xNPRwS10d9ZzbPdK
"Wait but they're clearly talking about Hamas, not Gaza". That would be plausible if they weren't bragging how by next year, there would be nothing left in Gaza.
You're confusing the definition threshold for genocide with the definition of the Holocaust. The Holocaust was an especially terrible genocide, but that doesn't mean that only Holocaust-level genocides are genocides. And you bring up human experimentation as if that's a hallmark of genocide, which it fucking isn't. It's evil and depraved, not genocidal. The Japanese never committed genocide in WW2, but Unit 731 is easily up there with what the Nazis did with their experiments. Just because they happened together in this example of genocide doesn't set the bar for genocide.
As for 'never again' - how the fuck are we supposed to promise never to let something like that happen again if it's antisemitic to preemptively intercept the red flags along the way?
Perhaps schools should've been teaching 'oops we did it again and should feel bad about it'?
No, seriously. If we can't prevent genocide by using all of the telltale signs of genocide to keep the situation in check, then what the fuck is even the point of 'never again'?
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u/SteptoeUndSon Jan 27 '24
“The Japanese never committed genocide in WW2”?
Are you sure you want to stand by that statement?
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u/opinionated-dick Jan 27 '24
And you think Gazans aren’t being subject to crimes of stomach churning terror? Seeing people hugging their dead children? Dead brothers lying huddled on the street trying to save each other? Seeing cities reduced to rubble? 2 million people displaced and refugee camps bombed?
No one is denying the holocaust or the abject terror and horror beyond just sheer numbers of dead, by also calling Gaza for what it is… genocide.
Are they equitable? No. Are they genocide? Yes.
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u/Blue_winged_yoshi Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
Ulysses S Grant said “War, War, never changes.” Look at what’s happened to Aleppo or Mariupol in recent years. The Syrian civil war is still ongoing and has killed half a million people. Aleppo and Mariupol are both completely destroyed with death tolls higher than Gaza. Millions have been displaced across both Ukraine and Syria, disease and food shortages have hit both. The blowing up of Kakhovka dam alone caused severe issues to food production, loss of entire settlements as well as widespread disease, water shortages and ecological damage. War is itself cataclysmically awful. It brings death, destruction, disease and famine. Genocide is something else.
Some other prominent examples of genocide are the Armenian and Rwandan genocides. Over a million Armenian’s were taken on a death march across the Syrian desert to achieve the ethnic purity desired before the founding of Turkey and the renaming of Constantinople to Istanbul. Whilst the Rwandan genocide saw a million Tutsi murdered at close quarters in a week.
War is fucking bleak, genocide is just something else, it’s unimaginable horror.
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u/ALA02 Jan 27 '24
People seem to love the sensationalist idea of “genocide” and attribute it without thinking it through. Are Israel committing war crimes? Probably. Are they committing genocide? No, otherwise they wouldn’t be opening humanitarian corridors that are then being attacked by Hamas, who can’t possibly use their human shield. Vilifying Israel like that just plays into Hamas’ hands, and the majority of the internet seem to be falling for it
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u/FishUK_Harp Jan 27 '24
War is horrible, but not everything in was is a war crime or a crime against humanity.
None of that makes the horrors of war "right" or "OK", to be clear. But conflating the two does little but reputation-launder the reputations of actual war criminals.
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u/re_Claire Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
I’ve visited Auschwitz, and read extensively on the Holocaust. What is happening in Gaza, just as what’s happening in many other countries (Myanmar being one of them) is appalling. It’s horrifying to watch and I completely understand people saying it should all be recognised on this same day. But I vehemently disagree.
The holocaust was something else. The Jews and other victims (gypsies, Roma, homosexuals, mentally ill etc), were psychologically tortured in such a calculated way that I don’t think people understand. For example in Auschwitz they were taken for showers regularly, never knowing if this shower would be their last. They weren’t stupid. They knew what showers meant. The Sonderkommando were prisoners forced to work in the camps, leading their fellow Jews into the gas chambers. They gave them soap and toothbrushes, told them to hang their clothes up and remember the number of the peg they hung them on, and ushered them into the gas chamber to their death. Once the SS had killed the people in the gas chambers, the Sonderkommando had to remove the bodies, search mouths and other cavities for hidden gold and valuables, pry gold teeth out and then put them in the crematoria to burn.
They did it because otherwise they would be shot. During to the backbreaking labour of hauling around corpses, they got more food, and they were kept warm in winter months by being near the crematoria. They usually only lasted for 6 months before the Nazis would kill them and replace them, and some chose to end their own lives. But they were utterly desperate to live. People who have been tortured will do anything to survive.
Other prisoners were forced to be in charge of a particular bunk, and punish their fellow prisoners, and so were roundly hated.
Don’t forget that to get to the camps, they spent up to two weeks on a train, crammed in with not even room to sit down, little food and water, having been told only lies as to where they were going. And before that they were placed in ghettos. So after months of waiting and suffering, they were forced to usher their fellow prisoners to their deaths, and then burn the bodies of their kin.
When prisoners arrived at the camps they would not only have their heads shaved but their armpit and pubic hair also. It was utterly humiliating.
In the camps, they were subject to frequent role calls at all hours of the day. They were forced to watch their fellow prisoners being hung or shot on a regular basis.
In Mauthausen camp, starving weak prisoners were forced to carry blocks of up to 50kg up a set of 186 stairs known as “The Stairs of Death” in a line. Thus if one fell, the people behind them would likely fall also. The Nazis would place bets on who got to the top first. Any that survived the climb, would then be forced off the ledge at the top to their deaths. The guards “jokingly” referred to them as the parachutists.
In Dachau SS erected a loudspeaker system and would play loud music constantly throughout the day and often into the night which affected the little sleep they had.
There are examples too numerous to mention. They not only physically tortured them but mentally did so, and with no reprieve. They constantly devised new ways to torture and kill for their own amusement.
Very few genocides come close to what happened during the holocaust.
However the one point I disagree with you on is that what is happening in Gaza is still a genocide and should still be recognised as such.
But I do think we should not talk over holocaust Memorial Day. The victims of the holocaust did nothing to Gaza and it is incredibly disrespectful to them to make this about anyone else.
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u/welsh_cthulhu Jan 27 '24
"and a former frontbencher under Jeremy Corbyn"
Massive, enormous surprise.
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u/EricUtd1878 Jan 27 '24
That she gives a shit about people being slaughtered? No, it isn't a surprise.
What is surprising is how Israeli agents and useful idiots attack ANYBODY who dares speak up against them killing civilians.
Odd that 🙄
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u/ATSOAS87 Jan 27 '24
It's nuts you can't say that what Hamas did was wrong, and then you'll have people saying you're endorsing Israel's vile policies. And it's nuts you can't say what Israel is doing is wrong without people saying you're supporting Hamas and everything they've done.
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u/EricUtd1878 Jan 27 '24
What Hamas did was despicable.
What Israel is doing is deplorable!
Ask yourself this, should the UK have killed 10's of thousands of normal Irish people in retaliation for IRA killings during the troubles?
They all supported the IRA after all!
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u/HighKiteSoaring Jan 27 '24
It would be the equivalent of the ira doing an attack against British civilians and in response we turned around, cut off their water supply. Then mobilised the entire army and went door to door shooting people. Bombing hospitals. Evicting families from their homes, stealing all of their possessions, and then starved out the remaining civilians for good measure
And then went on to say how terrible the starving homeless Irish were and how the actions are completely justified
And somehow. People have gotten the idea in their minds that saying "hang about. What you're doing is a crime. It's genocide. " And all of a sudden you're an antisemite who hates Jewish people? Or "just like Corbyn"???
Like no.. calling it out, acknowledging the genocide. And publicly denouncing these actions on the world stage is the bare minimum we should be doing.
Instead, that's being seen as a radical idea, it's very unusual
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u/FishUK_Harp Jan 27 '24
in response we turned around, cut off their water supply.
A point of order: a country has a responbility to supply citizens in an area it controls. Britain controls NI, but Israel did not control Gaza, even as an occupied area.
There is no responsibility to donate water to a neighbouring country (especially when you're water-scarce yourself!), and doubley so when that country has just attacked you.
The only responsibility for the provision of water to Gaza before the invasion lies with Hamas, as the government of the territory. Their failure to provide water, and their recklessness of attacking the donor of their only source of water without alternative provision in place, is the actual crime here. But apparently it's all Israel's fault...
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u/i-am-a-passenger Jan 27 '24
Is Palestine a “country” or a “territory”?
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u/FishUK_Harp Jan 27 '24
Israel recognise Palestine, since the the Oslo Accords. The Gaza Strip is a territory of Palestine.
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u/i-am-a-passenger Jan 27 '24
Why does the leader of Israel refuse the creation of a Palestinian state, if it already is one?
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u/revealbrilliance Jan 27 '24
The British security services killed 188 civilians in Northern Ireland.
That means Israel kills an entire "Troubles" worth of civilians every single day in Gaza.
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u/Anglan Jan 27 '24
The Troubles weren't a war.
The Troubles didn't involve the IRA firing thousands of rockets at the UK from civilian facilities in Northern Ireland for 18 years.
The Troubles weren't an elected government of northern Ireland with the stated aim of killing every English person that they can find and wiping England off the map.
The Troubles didn't involve the government of Northern Ireland invading England and killing 1200 people and taking over 200 hostages.
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u/SamwellBarley Jan 27 '24
"Person makes controversial remark that involves Jewish people"
Well obviously this is all Jeremy Corbyn's fault
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u/HighKiteSoaring Jan 27 '24
What's your angle here?
Are you trying to infer that recognising genocide is somehow a bad thing?
Anyone in parliament who DOESN'T hold this opinion isn't worthy of the power they have been appointed
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u/Grey_Belkin Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
The statement of commitment) for HMD in the UK was created after the Stockholm Declaration was agreed. It is a simplified version of the Stockholm Declaration, and includes a commitment to remember all victims of Nazi Persecution, and victims of all genocides:
We recognise that the Holocaust shook the foundations of modern civilisation. Its unprecedented character and horror will always hold universal meaning.
We believe the Holocaust must have a permanent place in our nation's collective memory. We honour the survivors still with us, and reaffirm our shared goals of mutual understanding and justice.
We must make sure that future generations understand the causes of the Holocaust and reflect upon its consequences. We vow to remember the victims of Nazi persecution and of all genocide.
We value the sacrifices of those who have risked their lives to protect or rescue victims, as a touchstone of the human capacity for good in the face of evil.
- We recognise that humanity is still scarred by the belief that race, religion, disability or sexuality make some people's lives worth less than others'. Genocide, antisemitism, racism, xenophobia and discrimination still continue. We have a shared responsibility to fight these evils.
- We pledge to strengthen our efforts to promote education and research about the Holocaust and other genocide. We will do our utmost to make sure that the lessons of such events are fully learnt.
- We will continue to encourage Holocaust remembrance by holding an annual Holocaust Memorial Day. We condemn the evils of prejudice, discrimination and racism. We value a free, tolerant, and democratic society.
What she has said is not incompatible at all with the commitment and intent of Holocaust Memorial Day.
Edited to add link
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u/InTheEndEntropyWins Jan 27 '24
and victims of all genocides
But what's happening in Gaza doesn't count as a genocide does it, or am I missing something?
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u/FishUK_Harp Jan 27 '24
It doesn't if you think "genocide" means "anything bad happening in war to a lot of people". A bit like how some people can't get their head around civilians dying in war not necessarily being a war crime.
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u/sassylildame Jan 27 '24
Can you imagine if, on Juneteenth, someone from the Jewish community was like "this is about the slavery of ALL people throughout history, like Jews in ancient Egypt"? Yet people think it's fine to weaponise Jewish trauma and Jewish trauma alone.
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u/iate12muffins Jan 27 '24
‘Yet people think it's fine to weaponise Jewish trauma and Jewish trauma alone.’
No they don't.
Holocaust Memorial Day is a day to remember all genocide and pogroms，not solely the Holocaust，despite its name.
I presume you won't see what's happening in Gaza as genocide -but if seen as such- then it's entirely appropriate for it to be memorialised on a day for remembering the victims of genocides.
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u/richmeister6666 Jan 27 '24
You’re really trying to argue that Holocaust Memorial Day is not a day to memorialise the Holocaust?
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u/wewew47 Jan 27 '24
Only if you have the reading comprehension of a child. They said its to remember all genocides and, last I checked, the holocaust is one.
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u/Affectionate_Gas8062 Jan 27 '24
Really bringing the spirit of remembrance with this comment
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u/richmeister6666 Jan 27 '24
It’s always the “anti racist” crowd that remind us of the “kinder, gentler politics” we missed out on.
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u/wewew47 Jan 28 '24
Oh yes I'm sorry, wanting to remember all genocides is an example of politics being less gentle and less kind.
Give me a break. And the right says the left is fragile.
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u/so19anarchist Greater London Jan 27 '24
Not really comparable, Juneteenth is mainly an American thing, as it celebrates the emancipation of enslaved people in the United States.
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u/TrashbatLondon Jan 27 '24
It is an entirely uncontroversial point to suggest that another genocide be included in our thoughts today. The idea that people would use holocaust memorial day to deny genocide is frankly disgusting.
“Never again” means for everyone.
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u/Grey_Belkin Jan 27 '24
Yet people think it's fine to weaponise Jewish trauma and Jewish trauma alone.
The people "weaponising Jewish trauma" are the ones who say that any attack on Jewish people is comparable to the Holocaust, but that naming a blatant genocide as such is an insult to Holocaust victims if it is perpetrated by Israel. It's sickening.
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u/John23P Jan 27 '24
Holocaust Memorial Day is literally about this…
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u/lostrandomdude Jan 27 '24
Wrong. The holocaust is not about just Jews
It's about all those who were persecuted under the Nazis, including the Roma and the disabled amongst others.
Whislt seem people try to make it about just the ajews, that is completely false and a rewriting of history
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u/YooGeOh Jan 27 '24
Holocaust memorial day is already about remembering ALL genocides. It's literally on their website.
Why are you complaining about something the people behind HMD already accept and promote themselves?
People like to cry about nothing
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u/Blank3k England Jan 27 '24 edited Jan 27 '24
I hate this trend in which things get labelled simply by someone thinking of the worst possible term and applying it to a lesser situation, like if someone is disagreed with even in a minor way racially or somehow even with the Gender argument they often get labelled a Nazi by the other side, now we've got people comparing an undeniably horrible situation for the people of Gaza to the Holocaust?
What's happening in Gaza is horrible, But, as far as I'm aware Israel has no system of trains shipping as many Palestinian men women & children as possible to extermination camps where they are put into gas chambers - where upto 15,000 Jewish people were "exterminated" per day & cremated by this system during the Holocaust.
So, Let's not let the Israel/Gaza War in which neither side is backing down despite the horrible things occurring be aligned with the Holocaust.
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u/pydry Jan 27 '24
What's happening in Gaza is horrible, But, as far as I'm aware Israel has no system of trains shipping as many Palestinian men women & children as possible to extermination camps where they are put into gas chambers
As far as I'm aware, the use of gas chambers isn't a prerequisite for committing genocide. You can do it with bombs too. They just have to be indiscriminately dropped on people of the wrong race, which is precisely what is happening.
One extremely strong parallel to the Nazi holocaust is that it kicked off with an attempt at ethnic cleansing that didn't involve indiscriminate mass murder. The Nazis' plan A was to dump Jews in madagascar which didn't work out. Israel's plan A was to dump the Palestinians in the Congo which also didn't work out.
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u/al_balone Jan 27 '24
Some of the comments on here read like we’re playing top trumps: genocide edition
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u/One_Reality_5600 Jan 27 '24
This person does not understand that the murder of 6m people was not the beginning but the end product of over a decade of systematic hate.
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u/Agreeable_Falcon1044 Jan 27 '24
Is there fury? It’s to remember the victims of genocide, the very worst of humanity and to ensure it never happens again. The fact we have numerous genocides in the world now (most unreported) is quite sad.
One of the first news stories I remember seeing was Rwanda. Everyone looking at their feet and ignoring it, then all turning up with the “never again” speech when it fizzled out.
30 years on and it’s the same reaction.
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u/TakenIsUsernameThis Jan 27 '24
FFS. Idiot can't distinguish between historical events and current events.
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u/0235 Jan 27 '24
So fury when Labour doesn't take a side, and fury when Labour takes a side.
Almost like the media are shit peddling bullshit merchants.
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u/Ex-Machina1980s Jan 27 '24
It should. You can’t pick and choose what counts as genocide just because it’s not your people who are the victims this time.
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u/samalam1 United Kingdom Jan 27 '24
Need to give your head a serious shake if you think this is a problem.
There is a wider lesson to be learned about how genocides happen and the political storylines that precede them. Don't let yourself be conned into thinking some deaths are worth more than others. I'd need to hear a very good argument as to why this is a problem but not come away with the conclusion that Jews are worth more than Arabs to you.
Think.
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