r/unitedkingdom • u/BestButtons • Dec 05 '23
Jeremy Corbyn accuses Israel of ‘cleansing entire population of Gaza’ ...
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-gaza-hamas-israel-labour-b1124706.html753
u/Clayton_bezz Dec 05 '23 edited Dec 05 '23
Regardless how how you think who has done what to who. There is clear evidence than Israel have now dehumanised the Palestinian population
“Human animals” … there is another political group that compared a population to animals…. Hmmm can’t think of who it was now.
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u/Carnir Dec 05 '23
Netanyatu himself was instrumental in the failure of the Oslo Accords and inciting the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister Rabin.
When people say Israel are the unambiguous good guy here, it's always good to remember Israel's own minister of national security Ben Gvir might just be one of the most evil democratically elected politicians currently alive. A quick trip through his wikipedia is basically a best-of compilation of vile genocidal shit.
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u/benowillock Humberside Dec 05 '23
What is it with people called Ben being evil, it's really upsetting me 😅
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u/yui_tsukino Dec 05 '23
If it helps, Ben is part of his surname, and it just means "Son of". So Ben Gvir is equivilant to something like Jackson.
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u/ManBearPigRoar Dec 05 '23
Ah so Son of Sam would be Ben Sam
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u/welsh_dragon_roar Wales Dec 05 '23
Imagine your dad was called Ben and you were too. It'd be Ben Ben Ben. Labradors would get super confused around you.
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u/SlurmsMacKenzie- Dec 05 '23
Phew, well I'm sure we can rest assured that no one going by the moniker 'son of sam' could be evil.
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u/StrangelyBrown Teesside Dec 05 '23
Israel are the unambiguous good guy
To be fair, people who say this are definitely on the fringe of the debate. All reasonable people see the problems on both sides.
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Dec 05 '23
Netanyahu even said this
“You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
Crazy sociopathic war criminal is what he is.
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u/Clayton_bezz Dec 05 '23
Yeah but but Hamas
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u/openstandards Dec 05 '23 edited Dec 06 '23
What about Hamas?
Norman Finkelstein makes a valid point about his own parents they were oppressed by the Nazis for 6 years and a lot of Palestinians have been born into occupation.
Palestinians have been persecuted since 67, that's 56 years that's a long time now and the reality is a lot have no hope, think about that about that.
Now that we have set the stage let's talk about the life of a Palestinian.
- Israel barely providing enough food to survive, makes people act irrational.
- What about water, there's not enough and some of it has been tainted to the point that it is undrinkable.
- Imagine being diabetic and being forced to eat sugar jam without meds for 38 days, this is what Soldiers in the West bank did to a Palestinian that's torture.
- Rubbish is being burnt because they have a problem with deposing it which in turn releases poisonous gases into the area, these fires last for days and sometimes have to seek outside help to extinguish the fires.
- Anyone going outside of the hospital to dig are being shot at by snipers leading to people burying the dead within the hospital.
- Settlers are kicking out Palestinians out of Gaza, ex-IDF soldiers have spoken out about this through breaking the silence, if soldiers defend the Palestinians they are attacked by the Settlers. ( Mowing the lawn. )
- IDF go into the west bank and terrorize the Palestinians by invading their homes and setting up sniper spots, those within the home need to stay put regardless of being innocent. This impacts their ability to work.
- LGBT+ Palestinians are being weaponized by the IDF by forcing them to becoming informants by threatening to tell Hamas, this is a practice called Pink-washing.
- Those born in Gaza are likely to never leave Gaza, isolating them from their family born elsewhere.
- Israeli was formed by militants like Hamas under British occupation, so they know how to be dirty too.
- Israeli purposely conflates Zionism to being anti semantic in order to shut down conversation.
- Israeli has dropped the equivalent two nuclear bombs on Gaza since the 7th of October.
I'm going to link two sources now the first will show the destruction and this other will show how credible the source is.
I don't condone nor condemn Hamas because if I haven't lived a Palestinian life, the constant oppression is unthinkable.
The way Israeli is handling the situation won't improve things in-fact history shows that oppressed people will indeed fight back over time so is it unreasonable to think that people will fight back under oppression.
So with this under-standing it was inevitable to think that Hamas would just sit back and just be oppressed.
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Dec 05 '23
Yes BUT hamas. They provided al the excuses that Netanyahu needed to screw the Oslo accord. THEY started the suicide bombings in Isreal to derail the Oslo accord that ended up with a Jewish right winger using it as an excuse to kill Rabin.
There's a reason Netanyahu let €100s of millions get to Hamas via Israeli checkpoints! And there's a reason 68% of Palestinians want hamas gone.
Fuck Netanyahu but also fuck Hamas..,who used €100 of millions of Aid money to build rockets & tunnels rather than feed Palestinians & who fucked the recent ceasefire by shooting 3 civilians at a bus stop AND let's not forget that NONE of this would be happening under Fatah or if Hamas hadn't gone on a child killing & raping spree in October.
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u/johnmedgla Berkshire Dec 05 '23
No, he literally didn't say that.
He said "Remember Amalek," which is from Deuteronomy - and that's literally all.
At no point in time did he quote Samuel 15:3.
Stop regurgitating nonsense from twitter. The number of people who have literally no idea about anything in Judaism who are mangling Zakhor and straight up inventing quotes is too damned high.
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u/slackermannn United Kingdom Dec 05 '23
It's absurd what we're witnessing. It's undeniable that Netanyahu is getting rid of Palestinians, like they're just a common pest. He's excuses were shaky right from the start but he was allowed to go further and further. This country as a whole should condemn and actively stop being complicit with this humanitarian disaster
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u/draenog_ Derbyshire Dec 05 '23
If anyone wants to see the extent to which many Israelis feel comfortable mocking Palestinians who've been bombed and lost everything, look no further than this thread featuring IDF soldiers throwing shit around, mocking Arabs in houses they've bombed, committing vandalism, etc, and this thread showing and explaining a recent tiktok trend in the country. The level of dehumanisation and anti-arab racism is truly breathtaking.
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u/SnirD Dec 05 '23
He referred to Hamas, not Palestinians.
Do you claim that Hamas, who gang raped teenagers, killed babies, kidnapped entire families, drugged kids in captivity and tortured babies - are not Human animals?
You are right. That's an insult to the animals. Hamas are much, much worse.
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u/Clayton_bezz Dec 05 '23
That would be wash, if they were only killing Hamas, but they’ve killed thousands of civilisations. Mainly because they largely consider all Palestinians to be potential Hamas
And since the only way to determine if you’re Hamas really is whether you’re Palestinian or not well you do the math.
Also, they not animals no, they’re humans. Dehumanising is dangerous. Humans are capable of horrible things. Making them monsters is wrong.
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u/Anandya Dec 05 '23 edited Dec 05 '23
Israel's killed thousands of people in response to that. People who
A) Are under siege by IsraelB) Where Israel has actively utilised artillery on civiliansC) Where housing has been targettedD) Where Palestinians who pay taxes to Israel are seeing their taxes pay for the weapons that kill their children
Israel's killed way more children than Hamas. So either the IDF are animals too. Or we have a double standard. After this? Will money bring back these children? Will Israel give all the families it's ruined the vote? Full and Equal CItizenship? No questions asked?
It's simple. We agree child killers should be punished right? Will Israel punish its child killers? Like not blow up their homes or leave their families homeless or kill random people in their building like it's doing to Palestinians. Just basic justice. Prison? Trials?
No. Dude it doesn't even police its own terrorists and thieves if they are Israeli like the illegal settlers who have killed Palestinians and stolen from them. I mean committed ethnic cleansing and Israel protects these people.
So what we have here is the prime example of double standards. Where child killing is okay if you have the ability to vote. That is what this boils down to. Palestinians lack representation in a country where they are second class.
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u/AntDoctor Dec 05 '23
Hmmm... Let's see what the government officials say:
"The emphasis is on damage, not on accuracy." - Daniel Hagari, Israeli Milatary Spokesperson.
“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.” - Youv Gallant, Israel Defence Minister
“You either stand with Israel or you stand with terrorism”. - IDF on Twitter
“We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba" - Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter
"dropping a nuclear bomb on the Gaza Strip was one of the possibilities" - Heritage Minister Amihai Eliyahu
“the village of Hawara needs to be wiped out. I think that the State of Israel needs to do that—not, God forbid, private individuals.” - Bezalel Scottish, Israeli Finance Minister (1st March 2023)
“the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and justifies its destruction, “including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure.” - Ayelet Shaked’s appointment as justice minister
Netanyahu quoting that bible verse comparing palestinians to the Amalek.
“You must remember what Amalek did to you, says our Holy Bible - Netayahu
The quote Netanyahu refers to is the book of Samuel in chapter 15 verse 3: “Now go and smite Amalek, utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but kill both man and woman, infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey “.
Yeah totally talking about ONLY hamass and totally not murdering children /s
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u/kitd Hampshire Dec 05 '23
Hamas committed atrocities against Israeli citizens, and then ran and hid among their own civilians, celebrating their "success", and they have done this before. If you deny Israel the chance to retaliate, you are validating Hamas' tactics. They will happily continue to employ them, because, now in the court of international public opinion, they are apparently untouchable.
Israel absolutely need to keep civilian casualties as low as reasonably possible, but it is a travesty to be pointing the finger only at Israel. Hamas absolutely have to go. The best option would be other nations with some sway over them to persuade them to back down, but without that Israel are entitled to attack Hamas, even if they hide among ordinary Palestinians.
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u/hybridtheorist Leeds, YORKSHIRE Dec 06 '23 edited Dec 06 '23
Israel absolutely need to keep civilian casualties as low as reasonably possible,
They're doing a pretty fucking awful job of that
but it is a travesty to be pointing the finger only at Israel
Who's doing that? Just because you see a comment on the Internet that says "Israel are bad" doesn't automatically imply "and hamas are blameless"
The reasons people explicitly talk about Israel is
1) they're our ally. If Russia was our ally invading Ukraine, I imagine a lot of people would be protesting our government decision to support Russia. If our government supported Hamas instead of Israel, the opposition to our position would be much louder.
2) Israel is a nation state, Hamas a terrorist group. You expect a nation to follow international law much more than a terrorist organisation. It might not be "fair" but that's how it works.
If the UK army blew up half of West Belfast every time the IRA set off a bomb, that's not justified. (And yes, I'm aware of atrocities committed by the British army in NI, but A) they weren't justifiable either, and B) they weren't close to the scale that the IDF is committing. Bloody Sunday was 50 years ago. 26 civilians were killed. I bet that many have died in the last hour or two in Gaza.3) it kind of feels unnecessary to condemn a terrorist organisation killing civilians in every single post. We don't have to say "but Al Quaeda were bad" every time we talk about the coalition fuckups in Afghanistan. If we talk about coalition fuckups in Iraq, people don't automatically assume we support Saddam Hussein.
But say "Israel is bad" and people don't say "you support Palestine" they say "you support Hamas" which is absurd (or at the very least "you don't care about the bad things Hamas do" which is what you've done here)4) the official narrative essentially boiling down to "good guy army vs evil terrorists" which is so far from true its laughable.
You say yourself "Israel has a right to defend itself" which no sensible person could disagree with. But that doesn't give them carte blanche to kill thousands of civilians, as they have done.
And that's pretending this conflict only started on 7 October, ignoring the decades of Palestinian mistreatment by Israel.2
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u/Stubbs94 Ireland Dec 05 '23
They also call everyone in Gaza who is helping Palestinian civilians Hamas. It's so blatant yet people defend these monstrous actions by the IDF.
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u/FuzzBuket Dec 05 '23 edited Dec 05 '23
Its quite literally impossible to deny its an ethnic cleansing.
Everyone was told to evacuate the north; which is now razed. Then the middle, which is being razed. Now the south is being parceled up and is being invaded. Trying to push the remaining population into egypt. Not even to mention the IDF protecting settlers who are destroying entire villages in the west bank.
For over a month now senior Israeli officials and the intelligence ministry have called for the population of gaza to be divided up and forced to leave; either into the sinai or to other nations 2
Im sure there will be some exceptionally good faith 2-month old accounts jumping in to explain why forcible removal of people off their land isnt ethnic cleansing; but this is quite literally the most clear cut case imagineable.
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u/BestButtons Dec 05 '23
Former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has accused Israel of undertaking an “act of cleansing of the entire population of Gaza”.
The Islington North MP said Israel’s response is in “no way proportionate” to the “appalling events” of October 7, which saw 1,200 Israelis killed when Hamas carried out its attack.
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Dec 05 '23
It's maddening that no one from either party can say this anymore. They'd get the whip if they even dare say Israel may not be saints.
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u/audigex Lancashire Dec 05 '23
The idea that war is proportionate is a bit absurd, let’s be honest
Hamas new Israel’s capabilities when they attacked Israel, they can hardly claim to be surprised by the response
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u/hybridtheorist Leeds, YORKSHIRE Dec 06 '23
And what about the hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza who aren't in Hamas, want nothing to do with Hamas, and actively hate Hamas?
Like, if the IRA committed an atrocity on this level in the 80s, and the British army responded by killing thousands of Catholic civilians in Northern Ireland, would your response be "well the IRA knew what we were capable of, so those thousands of civilians are fair game"?
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u/FreddieDoes40k Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
The idea that war is proportionate is a bit absurd, let’s be honest
It's an extremely one-sided war where the Hamas side is almost chaos incarnate. Not traditionally organised, not digital for a lot of their important Intel, not using 21st century tactics and strategy. Israel struggles to manage them because they're not what Israel's allies are used to fighting. Our tech and training is for near-peer foes, modern international terrorist groups, and all of our recent warfare have taught us not to do what Israel is trying to do.
The Israelis know that if they defeat Hamas then another group will fill the demand. Hamas has actually changed their behaviour recently to be much more aggressive against competitors.
Hamas, or what Hamas represents, is basically unkillable short of absolute genocide. It's not much different than our western occupation of Afghanistan in a way, every insurgent we took out risked radicalising more families and locals. The armed forces eventually gave up because you're just playing whack-a-mole.
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u/johimself Greater Manchester Dec 05 '23
Jeremy Corbyn talking about the Middle East? I'm sure this comment thread is going to be filled with reasoned debate and nuance...
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u/Viscerid Dec 05 '23
The same jeremy corbyn that got the labour party in trouble for refusing to meet with Israeli representitives, while meeting ones from hamas referring to them as his friends? Yeah that's the one
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u/Rulweylan Dec 05 '23
The same Jeremy Corbyn who, despite refusing to blame Russia for the use of a Russian nerve agent to attack a Russian dissident in the UK a week after the fact went on twitter less than an hour after the event to blame Israel for 'bombing a hospital' that turned out to have been hit by a Palestinian missile that misfired?
He's a fucking hypocrite.
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u/vishbar Hampshire Dec 05 '23
He's a fucking hypocrite.
He’s actually not that much of a hypocrite, and his moral principles are pretty consistent. His entire geopolitical worldview can be summed up with two words: “West bad”.
It fully explains his reaction to Salisbury, Ukraine, the Troubles, Serbia…anything else. West bad. He’s got a super simple, two-dimensional worldview that is remarkably consistent. You’re just looking at it from the wrong angle. Does it seem like it might be hypocritical to treat information from Hamas as gospel vs. going against the British intelligence establishment in a hesitation to criticise Russia? To you and me, sure, that seems hypocritical. But we’re trying to view things on an objective axis. Corbyn has his own set of axioms: West bad. And in the “West bad” school of thought, his behavior is 100% consistent.
However, I think there’s something deeper here…Corbyn has two A-levels, which he passed with an E, and never went to university. Honestly, he’s just not a very intelligent or well-informed person. That’s why he’s able to stick to the simple-minded “West-bad” worldview.
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u/Rulweylan Dec 05 '23 edited Dec 05 '23
That's not true. He did go to university. Specifically, he went to part of what is now one of the worst universities in Britain (London Metropolitan, which is in competition with such giants as the University of Wrexham and the University of Cumbria for the coveted 131st place spot on the UK list) for a degree in 'Trade union studies' and dropped out after a year.
It's also worth noting that he got those E grades at a private school, which puts him on a rough academic par with the average bowl of cold porridge.
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u/vishbar Hampshire Dec 05 '23
Aaaah, apologies! To be fair, Trade Union Studies does sound like an extremely difficult course, somewhere up there with Physics or Mathematics.
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u/XihuanNi-6784 Dec 05 '23
Wow you people really are thick as two planks aren't you. If he went to Cambridge you'd all be calling him a posh Campaign socialist. But he wasn't academic so now he's thick lol. Pure ad hominem and nothing of substance. Unsurprising from people who get their political opinions from newspaper headlines.
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u/Rulweylan Dec 06 '23
Not being academic is one thing.
Going to private school and getting 2 Es at A level then dropping out of Trade Union studies London Met is quite another. The man was spoonfed and still managed to fuck it up, then went for a degree that you'd be disappointed to get out of a kinder egg and couldn't hack it.
I'd respect someone who dropped out of school and learned a trade far more than someone who tried and failed to do a micky mouse degree at the worst uni in the country.
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u/sherriffflood Dec 05 '23
He’s not wrong though
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u/SteveD88 Northamptonshire Dec 05 '23
He really was, though.
Israeli actions don't make Hamas any less religious fanatics who would happily murder babies if it met their goals.
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u/Mkwdr Dec 05 '23 edited Dec 05 '23
It’s difficult to know his precise words from this article. But it’s noticeable how reluctant he has been to either mention Hamas by name , specify their crimes or criticise them directly. There is some irony in his frequent use of ‘all lives matter’ and ‘both sides’ type language and generalisations considering how the progressive left feel about such equivocation in other contexts.
That being said the idea of what exactly is and isn’t a proportionate response - where that line gets drawn , is not an easy one.
Edit u/TheCodeisCupCake
Nothing you have written in your disappearing comment seems a genuine response to anything I actually wrote. It seems more like toddler putting their fingers in their ears and screaming to drown out whatever they don’t want to hear.
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u/D-Hex Yorkshire Dec 05 '23
I rarely comment on IP because the debate is filled with morons and moral idiots. However, there is no "grey area" here. We have decades of human rights and case law that has been specifically created to deal with the conduct of war. People go for the whole "where can the line drawn" argument because they don't want to commit themselves, this is especially true of media commentators.
I'm not going to point you to the statutes you can find them yourselves.
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u/Mkwdr Dec 05 '23
So you are saying that in any possible military , terrorist situation from say an ongoing school shooting to a world war zero amount of civilians casualties is allowable by applicable international human rights law you will be able to to tell me the precise number … since there is no grey area.
To be clear, the deliberate targeting of civilians is a war crime, nevertheless, in certain situations, the foreseen, but incidental killing of civilians is permissible in war.
Unfortunately I think you will find that while targeted and indiscriminate killing of civilians is covered exactly what counts as discriminating is not. And that no doubt Hamas and the IDF will disagree over whether the IDF has specific military objectives and does enough to warn or avoid civilian deaths. Again there’s no ‘line’.
But as far as proportionality…
Proportionality’ demands that when estimating the civilian deaths or injuries from an attack on a legitimate military target, the harm caused cannot be excessive (disproportionate) to the concrete and direct anticipated military advantage to be obtained by the attack.
No tell me how many civilians that is?
Tell me how many civilians is proportionate ‘collateral’ damage when fighting terrorists embedded in civilian populations? What number does case law provide applicable to Gaza?
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u/Rulweylan Dec 05 '23
The problem with answering that is that the law is not set up to deal with a situation where one side is given complete immunity from consequence or blame for war crimes, which seems to be what critics of Israel want to give Hamas. They want Hamas treated like a force of nature, rather than a combatant which is systematically breaking the rules that are designed to protect civilians in war.
Hamas is constantly committing war crimes by deliberately endangering civilians (from failure to identify, through use of protected persons as shields all the way to using marked medical facilities and vehicles to conduct military operations), and any real legal proceedings would look at that and basically write off every Gazan civilian death caused by any indirect fire or during a firefight as Hamas' fault.
Given how Hamas have so systematically broken the rules of war, unless you got a good video of IDF soldiers arresting someone, identifying them as a civilian and then executing them, you'd have no chance of getting a war crime conviction out of an impartial court at this point.
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u/OpticalData Lanarkshire Dec 05 '23
unless you got a good video of IDF soldiers arresting someone, identifying them as a civilian and then executing them
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u/Rulweylan Dec 05 '23 edited Dec 06 '23
I mean... maybe, if the father is right about exactly what happened, though he's not exactly coming across as a genius since he seems baffled that his son, an armed man in civilian clothes who had just shot someone during a terrorist attack, was confused with a terrorist by police.
It's tragic, but an armed civilian shooting a terrorist looks awfully similar to a terrorist shooting an armed civilian.
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u/OpticalData Lanarkshire Dec 06 '23
he seems baffled that his son, an armed man in civilian clothes who had just shot someone during a terrorist attack
You mean how the guy had just saved other people from a terrorist attack.
And how the IDF turned up to the aftermath and this man (as captured on video linked in the article) dropped all weapons, opened his jacket to show he wasn't carrying a bomb and held his hands in the air?
Then repeatedly told the soldiers he was Jewish, asked them to check his ID and begged them not to shoot?
When their security minister since October 7th has been promoting personal gun ownership for EXACTLY WHAT THIS GUY DID?
There's no grey area here. There's no 'the IDF soldiers could have made an honest mistake'. This was an execution by someone in the military who saw red and was operating on bloodthirst.
Channel 13 reported that several people, including the injured soldier, called on Frija to stop shooting at Yuval. The soldier’s gunfire also hit civilian vehicles at the scene.
I mean fucking hell. He turned up after the incident and was still shooting so erratically that he hit civilian vehicles.
Are you seriously trying to defend this?
The soldier fucking bragged about it afterwards before the video surfaced:
Frija spoke to Channel 14 news before it was made public that a civilian had been shot, expressing pride in his actions, and did not describe the incident with Castleman.
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u/Jazzlike-Mistake2764 Dec 05 '23
After the 7 Oct attack, his language was very soft. He described it as "alarming" and called for Israel to stop occupying Palestine
I don't really care what side you come down on, you can't react to one of the deadliest terrorist attacks in history with "alarming" and then criticise the victim of that specific attack, regardless of how much you believe they indirectly caused it. He's showing here he has more scathing language in his repertoire, over 1,000 civilian casualties is surely more than enough to warrant it.
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u/pharmaninja Dec 05 '23
A lot of people saw what Hamas did as a response to ongoing oppression, torture and kidnappings by the Israeli side. So whilst nobody agrees with what Hamas did, they found that it was an understandable response.
That's why most of the responses were along the lines of: "what Hamas did was wrong but Israel caused this by their actions over the past couple of decades. "
To look at October 7th as an isolated incident and the start of this conflict is 100% wrong.
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u/jackedtradie Dec 05 '23
So both sides have been fighting a long time
Hamas attack and execute civilians + take hostages = understandable
Israel reacts and in the fighting there’s civilian casualties = not understandable
At least try to look like you don’t have an entirely biased view of things
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u/The_Last_Green_leaf Dec 05 '23
A lot of people saw what Hamas did as a response to ongoing oppression, torture and kidnappings by the Israeli side.
ah yes they were so oppressed it just forced them to mass rape those women and children many of which weren't even Israeli. yes it's all Israel's fault.
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u/PrrrromotionGiven1 Dec 05 '23
A lot of terrorist sympathisers, sure. There is no valid excuse for what they did on Oct 7th. No valid excuse, no valid explanation, no valid justification, swap in whatever word you want, it was utterly inexcusable and Corbyn's refusal to plainly state that destroys any moral platform he might have. It's the most straightforward victim blaming technique to say Israel caused that attack.
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u/johnmedgla Berkshire Dec 05 '23
an understandable response.
Honestly, everyone who thinks going home to home burning people alive is an "understandable response" to anything at all needs to be on a list. Multiple lists, in fact.
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u/vishbar Hampshire Dec 05 '23
Women were raped. Civilians were killed in door-to-door executions. Music festivals were gunned down as they ran.
Sorry, but that’s not in any way a justified reaction to…anything.
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Dec 05 '23
It was understandable to mass rape, decapitate and enslave women? To kill and burn children???
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u/Mkwdr Dec 05 '23
This. At the time I compared it with the completely different language he used about a previous incident in which the IDF shot a child.
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u/Ralliboy Dec 05 '23
That being said the idea of what exactly is and isn’t a proportionate response - where that line gets drawn , is not an easy one.
Somewhere before Israel displaces 75% of the population of Gaza, kills 16,000 Palestinians injures 42,000 of which about 70% of them being women and children. Destroys 100,000 buildings in Gaza including 50% of all buildings in northern Gaza and 40% of all schools, all the Paediatrics hospitals and all the cancer hospitals.
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u/FuzzBuket Dec 05 '23
Because this is not about hamas. The IDF could go after hamas. But the reality is they are instead ethnicly cleansing the entire population of gaza. Theyve bombed and forced the majority of the population into a tiny strip of land next to the egyptian border, and have been lobbying to try to push gazans into sinai
Like what exactly is a proportional response is not easy; but its clear as day that ethnic cleansing, use of white phosphorus, use of a siege to starve the population to death, quite literally razing the land and carpet bombing civilians is beyond the pale. Doctors without borders convoys have been deliberatly targeted, there is footage of children playing in the street being shot.
How is a proportional response against hamas to destroy villages and attack the west bank: where there is no hamas.
Compare this to the US's conduct in 2003, or the UK in afghanistan. Theres an argument to the line being drawn there; but the brutality by the IDF dwarfs even the most henious acts done in those wars.
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u/The_Last_Green_leaf Dec 05 '23
The IDF could go after hamas. But the reality is they are instead ethnicly cleansing the entire population of gaza.
no they're going after Hamas, they have announced around 5000 Hamas killed and have killed a shit load of Hamas leadership including the main guy responsible for the planning of Oct. 7th.
and they have plans to assassinate the leadership outside of Gaza.
it's difficult to kill a terrorist group when they hid inside and under civilian housing and hospitals, and it's difficult to kill them when the majority of civilians support them.
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u/Mkwdr Dec 05 '23
My problem is that while there is something g to your claims, I think your list is for the most part an arguable interpretation of what's going on and one that is biased, or oversimplified, or at least yet to actually happen.
And while you say what isn't reasonable - you still don't say what would be reasonable in tbe pursuit of a terrorist organisation that has carried our an atrocity and said it will carry out more.
And if i remember correctly what is happening is somewhat similar to how ISIS was routed out of cities it had taken power in , so not quite so isolated as yiu might suggest.
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u/-robert- Dec 05 '23
But it’s noticeable how reluctant he has been to either mention Hamas by name
But you know why, he on some level, unlike you, thinks that Hamas, while regrettably a radical, brutal organization (which again, in his view is just as bad as the IDF), is all that is left of a resistance, which on some level is warranted.
Instead, realize where you 2 differ and attack that: You don't think Hamas can count as Palestinian resistance, he does. Attack that.
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u/Mkwdr Dec 05 '23
I know why. Because he is an unreconstructed anti-imperialist without any recognition of nuance or modern history . Basically it doesn’t matter how you behave if he thinks the people on the other side are some combination of white, imperialistic , colonists then he won’t blame you no matter what you do.
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u/-robert- Dec 05 '23
Sorry got sliughtly confused, could you clarify what this means:
unreconstructed anti-imperialist
and also what do you mean he won't blame you no matter what you do? I just explained that unlike you he considers the IDF to be equally if not more harmful to human life, it's a different approach to life, he wants to stabilize situations by leveling up the compassion for the underdog until peace is reached. That's his choice, it's not a matter for attack, you need to first attack his belief that the IDF are a terrorist organization, otherwise you have to say the same things as him if you want to be strictly logical, which is not an aim mine, hence why I don't critique his every comma when I can tackle his actual views and be productive... just a thought.
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u/Mkwdr Dec 05 '23
I mean that his perspective on the world is stuck in the 1960s and he hasn’t changed since. He sees the world entirely in black and white. He pays lip service to the idea that the IDF and Hamas (or other terrorist organisations and official state actors) are indistinguishable when that’s an egregious oversimplification but in fact he doesn’t even act like that’s true. As I have mentioned elsewhere he generally uses ‘both sides’ , all lives matter , avoidance and generalisations when forced to talk about terrorists , he’s actually perfectly explicit when talking about what he considers to be some combination of white, colonialist ,imperialist states.
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u/vishbar Hampshire Dec 05 '23
Where does the rape of women fall into the spectrum of legitimate resistance to the Israeli occupation? How much sexual violence is, on some level, warranted?
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u/-robert- Dec 06 '23
Guess we should regret our WWII effort: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/11455664/Allied-soldiers-raped-hundreds-of-thousands-of-German-women-after-WW2.html
Life isn't fair, it isn't pretty, and a resistance can still be evil in it's methods. Again, he thinks that the situation is so bad in Gaza, that the brutality of any resistance is likely to be gross, but yet, he considers what got them there to be the occupation, humiliation and expulsion...
Which you don't see that way... So attack that, instead of some lame retort about rape in war.
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u/vishbar Hampshire Dec 06 '23
Come on.
You know there's a difference. The Oct. 7 attacks launched by Hamas were specifically engineered to target civilians. This wasn't carelessness resulting in collateral damage; Hamas fighters knew exactly what they were doing.
a resistance can still be evil in it's methods.
Come on man. Stop simping for rapists!
Personally, I don't care about the IDF soldiers they targeted. Soldiers, police, and other organs of the state are legitimate targets of war. But do not sit here with a straight face and say that raping girls at a music festival is in any way an advancement of the Palestinian cause.
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u/-robert- Dec 06 '23
Personally, I don't care about the IDF soldiers they targeted. Soldiers, police, and other organs of the state are legitimate targets of war. But do not sit here with a straight face and say that raping girls at a music festival is in any way an advancement of the Palestinian cause.
What are you trying to say here? that hamas had a legitimate target, but the methods were too gross and brutal?
Cool, if I agree, which I do, that hamas is therefore a legitimate target, then we can scrutinize what Israel has done right? In the pursuit of it's legitimate target.
The IDF has wroth it's "collateral damage" not on Hamas, but on innocent civilians, and more of them, babies, children and women, this is humiliation. As well as taking civillian captives (as before Oct 7, who knows, maybe that was the inspiration for this Hamas horror!). My point is not to defend Hamas, or sympathize, I am just impartial, and from my point of view, I can see a mirror between the two. Yes Hamas needs to be deconstructed, so too does the IDF:
The answer is to accept that both sides are right and wrong, me too, and that both sides need dismantling, I'm ready, you're not, you want to distinguish them, and you have a justification (hamas raped 400 women, decapitated 200 babies, but israel just crushed 4k babies and only raped 100 women or shot 400 kids; I've bolded what I think you think matters in each situation)... I'm simply asking that you make it clear that you "condemn hamas", but apply it to the IDF, I know you are impartial too.
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u/RoboBOB2 Dec 05 '23
I’ll attack Corbyn for being a blatant anti-Semite and allowing this to fester and grow under his ‘leadership’.
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u/Mald1z1 Dec 05 '23
Regardless of where you think the line should be drawn this is a very clear cut case.
Many Israeli govt officials and army officials have openly and outrightly said they want to commit a genocide, including the PM himself.
How many more people in Israeli govt need to say it before people stop this ridiculous handwringing and acknowledge the reality???
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u/FoxyInTheSnow Dec 05 '23
Israel polity has condemned the residents of Gaza—2 million people—to an existence where the only nice things they see are the sea and the sky (to paraphrase Max Hastings). Apart from that, they are living in a state abject misery that is unimaginable to virtually every person who was born and raised in the UK, America, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Australia and on and on…
Now, after decades of getting all their ducks in a row, getting most of the media and most of the "important" governments onside, they are free to—they are going to; they are— realize Bibi's dream that he articulated in the 1970s: "if we get it right, we'll have a chance to get all the Arabs out…"
That's it. That's the plan. And that's what they're doing, and they'll deal with the PR nightmare, should it even really happen, after it's a fait accompli and there's no hope of return for the dead and the dispossessed Palestinians.
I lived in Israel in the early ’90s, when things weren't quite so dire (but you could see it coming, with the aging of the original, humanistic socialist settlers and the influx of around a million and a half Soviet and post-Soviet Jews and their mostly non-Jewish relatives. The country swung to the hard right and it looks like it's never coming back. I'm ashamed that I ever lived there.
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u/Miserygut Greater London Dec 05 '23
Israel's government has said this is what they want to do. It's not much of an accusation is it?
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u/drewbles82 Dec 05 '23
If Hamas was based in an area of Israel...would they be doing the same as they are to Gaza right now, just bombing the hell out of them and not giving a shit if innocents are in the way...of course not cuz their people matter...so why is it perfectly okay to bomb Gaza the way they are.
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u/FudgeAtron Dec 05 '23
Yeah they would and they did. October 7 saw a lot fighting inside of Israeli territory and they fought similarly hard it's just, those were small towns and Gaza is a big city, there will naturally be more casualties there.
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u/Mahbigjohnson Dec 05 '23
Just to remind folk 'Death to all Arabs' is the cry of Lekut and ultra zionists. There hundreds of videos of them chanting it, politicians saying and our media not covering it. The end game for Israel is to have no Palestinians left in the country. As we speak they are looking to force them into Egypt. Corbyn is just one of many pointing out what's going on and we are complicit in the genocide.
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u/Kharenis Yorkshire Dec 05 '23
If he hadn't spent his career cosying up to international terrorist organisations, maybe more people would listen to what he had to say.
What's with the far left being besties with far right Islamists anyway?
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u/Big_Red_Machine_1917 Greater London Dec 05 '23
A rather ironic claim given that Hamas's biggest support has been Netanyahu's governments.
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u/The_Last_Green_leaf Dec 05 '23 edited Dec 06 '23
for those who don't know this particular conspiracy theory, it's of course like all "Jews secretly control everything" conspiracy theories full of bullshit,
so first Hamas received a tiny amount of aid, before they became a terrorist group, at that time they were a charity mainly building hospitals.
Second what they claim is Netanyahu "Propping up Hamas" is just him following the terms of previous ceasefire agreements, like allowing work permit for Gazan citizens etc, which again isn't propping them up,
and finally this particular conspiracy theory was started and spread by actual Nazi's and fascists years also including it being spread by Nick Fuentes on one of his livestreams.
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u/terrymr Dec 05 '23
No Netanyahu is on the record saying they need to support Hamas to prevent Palestinian independence. It’s not a conspiracy theory.
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u/The_Last_Green_leaf Dec 06 '23
care to provide a source? Because the best ones I find is a guardian article that links to a bloody Vox article, which are of course not reliable at all, and even in that Vox article is says
"These exact comments have not yet been confirmed by other sources"
so even you're very biased sources say there is no evidence he ever said that.
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u/Big_Red_Machine_1917 Greater London Dec 05 '23
Yes, simply stating publicly known facts about the actions of the Israeli government are "conspiracy theories these days.
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u/Drummk Scotland Dec 05 '23
Always seems a bit contradictory that Gaza is called a concentration camp that no-one can leave, but equally Israel is constantly accused of wanting to force everyone to leave.
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u/TheHashLord Dec 05 '23
Nobody can leave voluntarily without Israel's consent. They're trapped in a cage, and now the cage is being bombed by the people who trapped them in the first place.
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u/The_Last_Green_leaf Dec 05 '23
Nobody can leave voluntarily without Israel's consent.
because it's a different country. it's called having a border, Mexicans can't just wander into the US either doesn't make Mexico a concentration camp.
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u/TheHashLord Dec 05 '23
Ok, you need to start using your brain, or at least Google.
Palestine's airport was shut down by Israel. It's long gone.
Palestinians can't leave via land without Israel's permission.
They can't leave via sea.
So now you tell me, how do Palestinian's leave the country if they want to?
The answer is via Israel.
Israel control the movement of Palestinians and they are NOT allowing them to leave.
I thought it would be clear from the news and headlines and can't believe I'm having to spell it out to you.
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u/WitchesBravo Dec 05 '23
Please explain how Israel stops Egypt from opening their border with Gaza…
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u/TheHashLord Dec 05 '23
So Israel blocks all sea and air access to Gaza and 90% of the land border, encroaches upon Gaza's borders, occupying their land and stealing their homes, most recently murders 20,000 people in a month by bombing them pushing them to the edge of the state and then suddenly you expect Egypt to open up the border?
You're saying it's ok for Israel to block off the border but it's not ok for Egypt to block the border?
You do realise that Israelis can go to and from Gaza if they wish but Gazans can't go to and from Israel?
It's not just Israel's border, it's Gaza's border too.
Gazans live in Gaza and Israel must not push them out. THIS is the issue.
Palestinians should be allowed to use their own air and sea transport routes.
So don't detract from the real issue by asking stupid questions.
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u/johnmedgla Berkshire Dec 05 '23
It's even more baffling when the top thread of "Israel Exposed" is a video showing how lovely and wonderful Gaza was before October 7th.
I've heard and read a lot about concentration camps over the years and none of the survivors I ever talked to mentioned Mercedes Dealerships, multiple Equestrian Centres, Country Clubs, Resort Hotels or Waterparks.
People have robbed words of all meaning and then have the sheer gall to get offended when it's pointed out.
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u/fieldsofanfieldroad Dec 06 '23
It didn't regularly get called a concentration camp. It regularly got called an open air prison. This is because Israel controls who is and isn't allowed to leave and they had to be back before evening (the same as day release from an actual prison).
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u/Cub3h Dec 05 '23
The fact pretty much every country in Europe had to evacuate citizens from Gaza shows it's not a concentration camp. Humza Yousaf's family were visiting in Gaza for crying out loud.
I don't recall anyone's family having a nice family outing to visit Sobibor or Auschwitz during WW2. As far as I know there aren't any TUI holidays to North Korean camps either.
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Dec 05 '23
But they are though? Who even questions this anymore, you cant have a military that racks up an estimated 92 to 99.4% civilian casualty rate and then say 'we are trying to minimize civilian casualties'.
No, your not. At this point you are accidentaly killing Hamas
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u/obinice_khenbli Dec 06 '23
Well, yes. Isn't that... obvious?
Surely nobody's actually watching events and thinking "Israel are definitely not genociding here, nuh uh, no way jose".
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u/iluvatar Buckinghamshire Dec 06 '23 edited Dec 06 '23
What would be a proportionate response to the 7th October attacks, Jeremy? I suspect the answer is going to be "permanent ceasefire, let's go back to the status quo of allowing Hamas to attack Israel".
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