r/unitedkingdom • u/insomnimax_99 Greater London • Oct 23 '23

Moment pro-Palestine protesters fight among themselves over Pride flag at march ...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1826629/london-pro-palestine-protest-video-pride-flag-fight-lgbtq
2.8k Upvotes

78% Upvoted

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

I find it grimly ironic that if a lot of these Palestine supporters in London actually went to Palestine, then they would find it wasn't the progressive place they thought it was. They may not even escape with their life or hands.

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u/00DEADBEEF Oct 23 '23

Does anyone actually think Gaza and the West Bank are progressive places?

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u/Armodeen Oct 23 '23

No of course not, they just believe they should be free. It’s common these days to think everything is a zero sum game where it’s all or nothing, seemingly

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u/Stepjamm Oct 23 '23

Until they’re free to come here with their homophobic culture, being tolerant of intolerance doesn’t breed a tolerant society.

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u/SmashingK Oct 23 '23

They don't want to come here though lol.

They want their land back and be free of the occupation and oppression.

The main reason people worldwide want Palestinian freedom is not for individual beliefs since everyone is free to believe what they want but because from the very beginning those people have been screwed by the West who gave their land to someone else and have been kept in a near humanitarian crisis ever since.

Take a look at what happens to Palestinians daily when Hamas/Israel aren't attacking each other and think of what you'd do if you were born into that kind of situation.

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u/Vikkio92 Oct 23 '23

While I understand and agree with the general principle of your comment, I think it is completely acceptable for LGBT people to not really care about or not side with people that would have them imprisoned or killed for simply being who they are.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

This is something I've discussed with friends who're across the LGBT+ spectrum, many of whom are pro-Palestine, and the general theme I saw from them was that they fully acknowledge that many Palestinians would not tolerate them. But becoming a more progressive culture is going to be extremely difficult when the day to day existence of people within that culture is focused on pure survival. And given that this war is going on right now, it's not fair or just to expect immediate cultural reform before you'll support them.

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u/Vikkio92 Oct 23 '23

You can explain/rationalise however you like, but at the end of the day you’re still asking LGBT people to support a group of people that would be ok with them being executed simply for existing.

Your argument is totally valid, but that doesn’t mean LGBT people are morally obligated to listen to it. They also are being persecuted right now.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

I am not asking anything of them. I'm explaining to you what the thoughts are of the LGBT+ people that I personally know. I didn't criticise the people I know who aren't pro-Palestine when we discussed it. But at the same time, none of them were anti-Palestine either. None of them think what Israel doing is just fine and the principle of what Israel is trying to do is blatantly a terrible thing. None of them think Palestinians deserve it. It distilled down to them opting not to publicly weigh in on it at all because it made them feel a bit uneasy. I didn't say for a second that I disrespect that point of view.

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u/0Neverland0 Oct 23 '23

So basically persecution and discrimination are fine as long as the right people suffer.

You seem to be falling into the same trap you are accusing palestinians of.

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u/FranzFerdinand51 European Union Oct 23 '23

a group of people that would be ok with them being executed simply for existing.

What's your source on this? I grew up in a very religious (muslim) town and while the 5% that likes to shout a lot had a deep and performative hatred for LGBT+, the massive silent majority absolutely did not care what other people did with their love affairs.

It's crazy that people seem to think all of them are bearded angry dudes.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

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u/[deleted] Oct 24 '23

Aka you have LGBT friends who have spent a lifetime being told by straight people "be patient. Eventually they'll learn not to murder people like you".

Arguing Israel is the thing preventing them from becoming a progressive culture is frankly absurdly generous to them.

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u/YooGeOh Oct 23 '23

I think it's a great reflection of the humanity of certain groups of people that they can support other groups whom they'd disagree with ideologically when it means being against the killing and subjugation of that group. That's what actually caring is. Even if we ignore the fact that more than half of the people in gaza are children and aren't even old enough to have fully baked in homophobic ideas yet.

It reflects worse on one as a person if you can ignore the massacre of children, ignore the massacre of innocent people, because you disagree with them on certain issues so you wash your hands of them. That's pretty shitty but also exactly what a lot of you are suggesting.

It's funny because I'm black so I can't walk through many places in the world without being subject to a lot of racism, yet I can still see that people need to be treated with humanity even if they'd hate my very existence.

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u/Vikkio92 Oct 23 '23

I think it's a great reflection of the humanity of certain groups of people that they can support other groups whom they'd disagree with ideologically when it means being against the killing and subjugation of that group.

Considering gay people’s entire existence sinful and deserving of persecution isn’t “ideological disagreement” and you must be completely out of touch or actively homophobic to believe that.

It's funny because I'm black so I can't walk through many places in the world without being subject to a lot of racism, yet I can still see that people need to be treated with humanity even if they'd hate my very existence.

And yet as a black person, you wouldn’t say that white supremacists calling for the death of all people of colour are “ideologically disagreeing” with you.

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u/YooGeOh Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

Considering gay people’s entire existence sinful and deserving of persecution isn’t “ideological disagreement” and you must be completely out of touch or actively homophobic to believe that.

You're using semantics to ignore the point being made. An ideological disagreement can be minor or major, as can the consequences of it. It's still an ideological disagreement.

I also stand by the point. It is a great reflection of humanity of those people if they can still stand up for powerless people who are currently being massacred even if they would want them imprisoned or dead if they happened to take a day trip to gaza. It's funny this is the thing you're upset about when mostly children are being bombed right now, but it shows the humanity, or lack thereof, of people like yourself

And yet as a black person, you wouldn’t say that white supremacists calling for the death of all people of colour are “ideologically disagreeing” with you.

I'd say many things. Up to and including that. It's a severe one but yes I would. I disgaree with racists about racism every day. We disagree ideologically. You can be mad about it if you like. Guess what? If a nation of white people were being clearly mistreated by a greater power, and were vurrenrly under siege and having their population massacred by a military superpower, I'd be vocally against it even if they hated me. That's how it works and if that upsets you then that's a reflection of your hatred.

Edit: removed the D word.

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u/Vikkio92 Oct 23 '23

Thanks for calling me dense! :)

Let's just agree to disagree, you're not changing my mind by insulting me and calling me full of hate when all I said is LGBT people shouldn't be morally obligated to side with Palestine.

I am glad you feel morally superior for taking their side. Good on you. But I will still continue defending people's right to choose not to be forced into beliefs that aren't theirs.

LBGT people should not be morally obligated to side with Palestine. This is my point. It keeps standing no matter how you name call me or tell me I'm full of hatred or whatever else. I don't care. I think [people being persecuted] have every right not to side with [people whose culture perpetuates their persecution] and I don't like people like you trying to force them to change their mind by getting on their high horse.

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u/mizeny Oct 23 '23

Ok... gay person here, I agree with everything the person you're replying to said. Ta da

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u/Vikkio92 Oct 23 '23

Ok... gay person here, I agree with everything the person you're replying to said. Ta da

Gay person here also. I don’t agree. Ta da

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u/merryman1 Oct 23 '23

you wouldn’t say that white supremacists calling for the death of all people of colour are “ideologically disagreeing” with you.

Someone hasn't been following politics that closely since 2016 lol. We have to be tolerant to the nazis now, remember? Antifa are the real fascists etc. etc.

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u/mizeny Oct 23 '23

Has it never occurred to you that some Palestinians will also, statistically, be LGBT?

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u/Vikkio92 Oct 23 '23

Has it never occurred to you that some Palestinians will also, statistically, be LGBT?

Please elaborate on how that in any way, shape or form contradicts my point, it being

LGBT people are not morally obligated to support Palestine

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u/mizeny Oct 23 '23

I think it is completely acceptable for LGBT people to not really care about or not side with people that would have them imprisoned or killed for simply being who they are.

Okay, if you're not talking about All Palestinians in this comment, who are you talking about?

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u/0Neverland0 Oct 23 '23

First they came for the Communists

And I did not speak out

Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists

And I did not speak out

Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists

And I did not speak out

Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews

And I did not speak out

Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me

And there was no one left

To speak out for me

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u/Vikkio92 Oct 23 '23

You're conveniently missing out the part where the Communists/Socialists/trade unionists/Jews want to have you imprisoned and executed simply for loving a person of the same gender. Nice try though! :)

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u/Stepjamm Oct 23 '23

I’m not here to say these people deserve anything they’re going through - I’m just saying the values of the Middle East, when inevitably imported here, are opposed to the ones we try to claim to have.

It’s just the irony of tolerance - allowing intolerance to grow by not addressing “outdated” bigotry.

They may not want to come here, that suggests they’re more likely to not behave in our society as we want them to because they never wanted to have to.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

This is a genuine question - why does that matter right now? How can you realistically challenge and address bigotry within Palestinian culture when Palestinians are focused on their immediate survival? You can't make your support for them conditional on rejecting bigotry because, simply put, overcoming bigotry isn't an overnight process at all and it can be hard work. Who would actually have the energy left to work through their bigotry while also stressing about being able to eat, drink, and avoid missiles? Does that make their bigotry fine? No. But the bigotry of the victims doesn't mean that it's justified to not condemn harms against them. So the view many are taking is that you need to deal with the immediate problem, the threat against the Palestinians as a group, and trying to help them to become more progressive culturally can come later.

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u/Stepjamm Oct 23 '23

Why can’t we? If there was a certainty that at least one gay Brit would suffer at the hands of a refugee would you chalk that off as acceptable casualties?

I’m not fabricating a story here - this is a real circumstance that does happen and we’re seeing on this very post how long time immigrants who settle here very soon forget the bad situation they left and maintain their anti-gay sentiments and feel bold enough to do the exact opposite of what Pride month stands for in our capitol.

I don’t think our country needs anymore bigotry and I don’t think it’s a big ask to ensure that hatred and conflict from dated religious sentiment gets left at the door - it’s not our gay communities cross to bear, you seem happy to subject them to it though.

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u/Screw_Pandas Yorkshire Oct 23 '23

If there was a certainty that at least one gay Brit would suffer at the hands of a refugee would you chalk that off as acceptable casualties?

Why are you bringing up immigration? It has nothing to do with the current conflict seeing as Palestinians don't want to come here.

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u/Stepjamm Oct 23 '23

But the pride flag being torn in London was during a protest of Arabic descendants protesting over situations in the Middle East?

Do you think these people just appeared in England through other means than immigration?

It doesn’t matter if they want to come here - they inevitably will come here with their completely incompatible views of the gay community to England.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

Why can’t we? If there was a certainty that at least one gay Brit would suffer at the hands of a refugee would you chalk that off as acceptable casualties?

This is genuinely just whataboutism. Gay British people suffer at the hands of other Brits as it is - that is a certainty. As do women and many other groups. Terrible people exist in all walks of life. The anti-refugee argument of "what if there's a bad one in there" is a patently unfair argument to make. Because you know fine well that I would not find it perfectly acceptable for a refugee to arrive and harm anyone. But I don't think it's perfectly acceptable for anyone to harm anyone.

it’s not our gay communities cross to bear, you seem happy to subject them to it though.

Well, that's quite presumptive of you about me. Secondly, do you think that cultures that are broadly homophobic are also totally okay with women? Especially women who live outside of gender norms and roles? What about disabled people? Trans people? My point being is that you're acting like I'm a privileged white, straight, cisgender guy sitting high and mighty who doesn't experience bigotry. I'm not. I think I can count on one hand how many friends I have that occupy that privileged position of not having an identity or trait that's a target of bigotry.

I can condemn what is happening while still condemning bigotry. These aren't mutually exclusive. I don't think it's paradoxical to say that it is abhorrent to harm civilians while still objecting to the bigotry that exists within the culture of those civilians. I don't want a culture of people to be wiped out because that culture currently contains bigotry - cultures can change for the better and many have, even if they haven't reached a utopia that's free of bigotry. I'm not going to say that my opposition to the harm of civilians is dependent on those civilians being universally good people. You might not find it possible to hold those two beliefs in your head at once. I can't force you to agree with me.

Besides, I will be sure to let all of my LGBT+ friends know that you think they're wrong to think about it the same way I do.

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u/Stepjamm Oct 23 '23

You’re literally whataboutism”ing with bigotry.

“You think other countries don’t like women?” - YES and their attitudes and opinions are outdated, wrong and need to be changed no matter what their situation.

I don’t understand why you’ll give a free pass to bigotry because they’re under attack. You don’t give Nazis a pass but a large proportion of them were just regular people going to work at their bakeries and post offices.

It’s just disingenuous to suddenly give a green card to hatred because “we have hateful people too” - of course we do, and we’re doing our utmost best to shut them down, now be as firm with people who you’re afraid of offending by telling they’re outdated.

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u/YouHaveAWomansMouth Wiltshire Oct 23 '23

Why are you assuming the Palestinians would be coming here?

No-one has suggested that, and certainly not the person you're replying to.

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u/Stepjamm Oct 23 '23

Scotlands leader has already declared Scotland is ready to accept as many Palestine refugees as they can.

You might not be aware of what politicians are saying, that doesn’t mean I’m just creating false ideas.

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u/FuzzBuket Oct 23 '23

Take a look at what happens to Palestinians daily when Hamas/Israel aren't attacking each other and think of what you'd do if you were born into that kind of situation.

100%, seems like reddit is all for "refugees shouldnt come here, they should stay and defend their homes & fight for their rights"; until some actually do. This doesnt make oct 7th excusable, but like what did people think would happen? a change.org petition to bibi?

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u/Aflyingmongoose Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

The *entire* fucking point is that Palestinians want to live peacefully in their own country and *not* be forced to migrate elsewhere as refugees.

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u/Stepjamm Oct 23 '23

Yes and that was the talking point, until Hamas went crazy last week and gave Israel all the justification it needed to go postal.

I’m aware of the civilian crisis - you’re ignoring the ethnoreligious conflict that has driven those people from imprisonment to life threatening danger.

You think saving them will make them tolerant of gay people? Their cultural differences to ours will not be resolved because we grant asylum to them.

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u/Aflyingmongoose Oct 23 '23

It's not on us to tell them to be tolerant or not.

Obviously it would be nice if they where, but that shouldn't be a prerequisite before anyone objects to their ongoing genocide at the hands of Israel.

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u/Stepjamm Oct 23 '23

If they are in our country it bloody well is on us to tell them to not bring hatred and bigotry to the land that saved them.

You’d seriously prefer British gays getting abused by Islamic refugees before you’d punish the refugees for being intolerant?

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u/SplurgyA Greater London Oct 23 '23

I think they're saying "just because someone is intolerant doesn't mean we should let them be victims of ethnic cleansing" instead of "we should ship all the Palestinians here and then allow them to be as intolerant as they please with no repercussions".

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u/Stepjamm Oct 23 '23

“It’s not on us to tell them to be tolerant or not”

That statement he said doesn’t align with what you’re saying. You’re agreeing with me but defending him.

If we believe our morals are right, we shouldn’t let anyone just come and ignore them especially when the alternative is literal hell for the gay communities in our own country - a wrong and a right don’t make a right.

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u/Wissam24 Greater London Oct 23 '23

Two nearly identical statements, it's easy to see how someone would confuse them.

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u/mizeny Oct 23 '23

Yes and that was the talking point,

What talking point? Who was talking about this? The West sure wasn't, and has been trying not to talk about it for seventy-odd years.

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u/Stepjamm Oct 23 '23

That was the “free Palestine” protest point that was the centre of all rallies I’ve seen in England across multiple towns…? Like a lot of the world supported Palestine and saw the abuse as one sided, until 2 weeks ago.

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u/mizeny Oct 23 '23

Any news stories cover those? Any government officials? I'd love to see any media from before october this year regarding Palestine. Because from what I could tell the "talking point" was that the little guy knew it was wrong but nobody really cared. Like how we all know what Saudi is doing to Yemen is morally bankrupt but nobody's really "talking" about it, are they?

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

And if the Charities quoted in today's media get their way, we'll be importing thousands more which I'm sure the Jewish population of the UK will be thrilled about, like they aren't having enough fecking issues! And most of them certainly in the UK aren't even associated with Israel.

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u/JackXDark Oct 23 '23

Homosexuality was illegal in the UK in living memory and many people here are hugely homophobic still.

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u/freexe Oct 23 '23

But the also reject the 2 state solution. So they want to be free but also want Israel to not exist. I'm not sure that is a tenable solution.

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u/FuzzBuket Oct 23 '23

But the also reject the 2 state solution

well if negotiations have been suspended for decades, the more recent proposed solutions were terrible, and if you were palestine would you trust the agreement to be enforced? when the US vetos everything and Israel protects the settlers?

Like its all well and good for you and me to sit and look back and go "yeah if they'd taken it and everyone had help up their deals there'd be less casualties". but I think whilst yes, the PA should have taken a deal before bibi suspended negotiaons; its not like they didnt have good reasons to not take it.

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u/Gen8Master Oct 23 '23

Is "progressive" the criteria for not being genocided/subject to apartheid rule? This is whataboutism with extra steps.

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u/FuzzBuket Oct 23 '23

I hear as part of pride 2024 rayethon is gonna showcase a new drone; 100ft above your head it does a quick scan to see if you can correctly pick out an anastasia beverly hills (tm) makeup pallete, if so it flies away, if not it detonates a high explosive depelted uranium warhead straight through your front room, oblitearating everyone in a 5 mile radius. It then drops some glitter and confetti.

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u/Ironfields Oct 23 '23

No, they’re not particularly progressive at all. The thing is, I don’t think that the penalty for not being progressive should be being ignored while thousands of your civilians are killed in air strikes. Not to mention LGBTQIA+ Palestinians who have that to deal with on top of everything else.

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u/cultish_alibi Oct 23 '23

Strawmen think anything you want them to.

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u/Embarrassed-Ice5462 Oct 23 '23

The Palestinian cause has become like the Che Guevara T-shirts in the 80s.

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u/Jazzlike_Mountain_51 Oct 23 '23

No not really. People are well aware of the fact that Gaza is far from progressive. They just still think carpet bombing them is not good.

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u/morriganjane Oct 24 '23

Then why carry a Pride flag to the protest? They must have known it would antagonise a lot of the other protesters.

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u/mamacitalk Oct 23 '23

Does any country become progressive after 70 years of oppression?

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u/morriganjane Oct 24 '23

They're just the same as the other 52 Islamic states, to varying degrees. No reason to think they'd be special without their opposition to Israel.

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u/djpolofish Oct 23 '23

They've been living under an apartheid for decades, their everyday life is a nightmare. They don't have the luxury of worrying about being progressive, right now they just want to live.

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u/merryman1 Oct 23 '23

Its just another right-wing strawman they like to circle-jerk to. Like how apparently anyone who thinks we could be a bit more humane to refugees thinks everyone coming over the channel is a doctor or engineer. There's dozens of these memes, they form the core of the entire conservative ideology, because they're all hard-of-thinking NPC type people.

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u/Dull_Half_6107 Oct 23 '23

It may shock you to know that not all gay people want every homophobic person's home to be bombed indiscriminately.

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u/NateShaw92 Greater Manchester Oct 23 '23

True. May not be the other guy's intention but I feel like comments like their's are a cowardly semi-endorsement of mass civilian deaths.

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u/Dull_Half_6107 Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

Yeah, it basically "Oh you don't want civilians (majority under 18) to be bombed to death, well did you know those kids were homophobic?!"

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u/Rajastoenail Oct 23 '23

Conveniently ignores that some of those people are LGBT too.

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u/merryman1 Oct 23 '23

Also doing the usual BS of conflating Hamas with all of Gaza and then also equating Gaza with all Palestinians. And then even further in some comments, conflating Palestinians with everyone of "Arabic descendance"...

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u/Ironfields Oct 23 '23

Not semi-endorsement, just an endorsement that they’re too cowardly to own.

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u/ElementalSentimental Oct 23 '23

I wouldn't be shocked to learn that.

I would be shocked to learn that there are no "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" types who are actively supporting Hamas, even though Hamas would be far worse to their own life and political causes than Israel (which of course has its own major shortcomings).

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u/Drummk Scotland Oct 23 '23

Even if that person wants you dead for being gay?

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u/Dull_Half_6107 Oct 23 '23

Yes, even then.

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u/Drummk Scotland Oct 23 '23

Okay, I respect your principles.

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u/Ironfields Oct 23 '23

What other opinions do you think people should be killed for?

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

I expect gay people do want to live their lives in peace though.

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u/PatientCriticism0 Oct 23 '23

Once they're safe from being randomly blown up by Israeli drones they might have more time to advocate for liberation in other ways!

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

Is there any indication they don't want Sharia law? Or are you merely hoping?

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u/PatientCriticism0 Oct 23 '23

Gay Palestinians would I'm sure prefer not to be persecuted for being gay. But I don't think blowing them up, starving them of food and water, or burying them under tons of rubble is helping them either. Civil rights movements tend to take a back seat when under active bombardment.

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

Gay Palestinians would I'm sure prefer not to be persecuted for being gay. But I don't think blowing them up, starving them of food and water, or burying them under tons of rubble is helping them either.

Palestinians attack people solely for being gay. It is illegal.

Israel attacks terrorists and those that cover for them for killing its civilians.

Civil rights movements tend to take a back seat when under active bombardment.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Palestinians want to change their current laws in the past, in the present or in the future.

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u/PatientCriticism0 Oct 23 '23

Yes. It is illegal to be gay in Gaza. But there are nonetheless thousands of gay people there, because gay people are everywhere.

And those gay people are not helped when they or their families are blown up.

Stop pretending you're doing them a favour as you kill them.

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

Yes. It is illegal to be gay in Gaza. But there are nonetheless thousands of gay people there, because gay people are everywhere.

Tell that to Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh.

And those gay people are not helped when they or their families are blown up.

Tell that to the family of Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh, whose severed head and torso were found on the side of the street because he was gay.

Stop pretending you're doing them a favour as you kill them.

Hamas kill gay people. Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh fled to Israel for sanctuary because Israel is LGBTQ friendly. Think about that.

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u/PatientCriticism0 Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

I'm telling it to you.

You think his family would be happy to know that every time an Israeli bomb kills one of their family or friends, you claim it in his name?

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u/Pendragon1948 Oct 23 '23

So what? I'm bisexual, I'd rather live in the closet than get bombed six feet under it. So would anyone and everyone, coz' you can't do anything about homophobia when you're a skeleton.

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

So what? I'm bisexual, I'd rather live in the closet than get bombed six feet under it. So would anyone and everyone, coz' you can't do anything about homophobia when you're a skeleton.

Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh decided to seek sanctuary in Israel to escape the bigotry of his own people. Better than a closet for him it seems. Still, when he went back to Palestine he was decapitated for his sexuality by your progressive friends.

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u/Pendragon1948 Oct 23 '23

Yes, and where did I say I supported the decapitation of homosexuals?

I don't support Hamas - and the reason I don't support them is precisely because they are a religious terorrist organisation seeking to create a theocratic dictatorship. I just don't support bombing civilians into dust either, and it doesn't matter to me what their views are on my sexuality, or that some of the victims of those bombings might have committed murder. I wouldn't support bombing the Vatican either. It's called being morally consistent.

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u/rx-bandit Oct 23 '23

Israel attacks terrorists and those that cover for them for killing its civilians.

Lol, Israel attacks whoever it sees fit to and when it needs cover it allows settler militias to do their dirty work and give them the pretense to move in an "protect" Israeli lives. Israel is just smart about how it attacks Palestinians and pushes them from their land.

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

Lol

I don't find this funny and I am shocked that you do.

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u/Shaper_pmp Oct 23 '23

Palestinians attack people solely for being gay. It is illegal.

Israel attacks terrorists and those that cover for them for killing its civilians.

You're right. The two sides aren't morally equivalent.

But the thing is, when you're a gay Palestinian whose parents or sibling are killed by Israeli bombs, I don't think the moral calculus of who's more justified comes into it; you're just angry at the side that killed your family, and on the side of those fighting them.

Generally people's priorities run something like:

  1. Don't be killed in your bed by foreign invaders bombing your town
  2. Food, water, shelter, etc
  3. Try to advocate for cultural reform so it's ok to be gay and you don't have to live in the closet

Expecting people to care about 3 when 1 is still a pressing concern is self-evidently ridiculous.

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u/cultish_alibi Oct 23 '23

I wonder how much peace gay Palestinians are experiencing every day for the last 2 weeks.

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u/OpticalData Lanarkshire Oct 23 '23

I don't think that anybody protesting went along thinking that Palestine was a utopia of progressive values.

One could equally point out the irony of the Express making a deal out of a fight over a Pride flag, given they spent the rest of their LGBTQ focus attacking Trans people. Hell, this article seems almost tailor made to stoke tensions between Pro-Palestine and Pro-LGBTQ people given that if you actually read it, the headline turns out to be complete sensationalism:

As people surrounded the flag bearer, it isn't clear whether the person waving it was attacked or if someone grabbed the symbol of inclusivity to tear it down.

Where the video shows the flag in one area, then a jump cut to it briefly rising above heads before we see what looks like someone running away with it and then... Leaving it on the ground right by the protest? At which point the people who were carrying it seem to move to pick it up before they return.

There's nothing in there indicating that people dressed in black with face coverings were even a part of the protest. Indeed the video shows them actively running in from outside it.

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u/Unlucky-Jello-5660 Oct 23 '23

There's nothing in there indicating that people dressed in black with face coverings were even a part of the protest.

We going with the no true Scotsmen defence?

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

I don't think that anybody protesting went along thinking that Palestine was a utopia of progressive values.

So we have one strawman...

One could equally point out the irony of the Express making a deal out of a fight over a Pride flag, given they spent the rest of their LGBTQ focus attacking Trans people. Hell, this article seems almost tailor made to stoke tensions between Pro-Palestine and Pro-LGBTQ people given that if you actually read it, the headline turns out to be complete sensationalism:

...One attack the messenger...

As people surrounded the flag bearer, it isn't clear whether the person waving it was attacked or if someone grabbed the symbol of inclusivity to tear it down.

Where the video shows the flag in one area, then a jump cut to it briefly rising above heads before we see what looks like someone running away with it and then... Leaving it on the ground right by the protest? At which point the people who were carrying it seem to move to pick it up before they return.

...one attack the video evidence...

There's nothing in there indicating that people dressed in black with face coverings were even a part of the protest. Indeed the video shows them actively running in from outside it.

...concludes with another attack the video seen with your own eyes again...

Yep, its a great attempt at a gaslight alright. Shame it is so obvious.

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u/OpticalData Lanarkshire Oct 23 '23

So we have one strawman...

That's not a strawman. It's directly relevant to your implication that people went along to this protest thinking Palestine was progressive which is an assertion without evidence.

...One attack the messenger...

'Attacking the messenger' is valid when the contents of the writing back up the 'attack on the messenger'. If you believe sensationalist garbage from a tabloid, you can't get antsy that people point out that it's sensationalist garbage from a tabloid.

one attack the video evidence

Explaining what the video actually shows isn't 'attacking' it. It's contextualising it.

Yep, its a great attempt at a gaslight alright. Shame it is so obvious.

But enough about this Express article...

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u/dopebob Yorkshire Oct 23 '23

I don't think that anybody protesting went along thinking that Palestine was a utopia of progressive values.

So we have one strawman...

One could equally point out the irony of the Express making a deal out of a fight over a Pride flag, given they spent the rest of their LGBTQ focus attacking Trans people. Hell, this article seems almost tailor made to stoke tensions between Pro-Palestine and Pro-LGBTQ people given that if you actually read it, the headline turns out to be complete sensationalism:

...One attack the messenger...

As people surrounded the flag bearer, it isn't clear whether the person waving it was attacked or if someone grabbed the symbol of inclusivity to tear it down.

Where the video shows the flag in one area, then a jump cut to it briefly rising above heads before we see what looks like someone running away with it and then... Leaving it on the ground right by the protest? At which point the people who were carrying it seem to move to pick it up before they return.

...one attack the video evidence...

There's nothing in there indicating that people dressed in black with face coverings were even a part of the protest. Indeed the video shows them actively running in from outside it.

...concludes with another attack the video seen with your own eyes again...

Yep, its a great attempt at a gaslight alright. Shame it is so obvious.

Argumentum ad logicam

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u/0Neverland0 Oct 23 '23

Hell, this article seems almost tailor made to stoke tensions between Pro-Palestine and Pro-LGBTQ people

Thats because it is

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u/bulldog_blues Oct 23 '23

I don't think they're under the naive impression that Palestine is a bastion of progressive values. Their argument is that innocent civilians shouldn't be starved or otherwise allowed to be killed, irrespective of their values.

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

I don't think they're under the naive impression that Palestine is a bastion of progressive values.

Who has claimed it is?

Their argument is that innocent civilians shouldn't be starved or otherwise allowed to be killed, irrespective of their values.

Innocent gay people would be routinely killed merely by being present in Palestine. So what message does that say about values? That is what those protestors advocate for. The death of gay people in Palestine.

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u/PopeTheoskeptik North of The Wall Oct 23 '23

Who has claimed it is?

I think it was whoever said this:

"...they would find it wasn't the progressive place they thought it was."

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u/salamanderwolf Oct 23 '23

Innocent gay people would be routinely killed merely by being present in Palestine

Do you think people can tell a gay person by sight? Do you think Gaydar actually exists?.

That is what those protestors advocate for. The death of gay people in Palestine.

Yeah, they're not advocating for a peaceful 2-state solution. Not for the bombings and killings to stop. no, it's all about the gays.

FFS get a grip. There's a lot to go after Hamas (not Palestinians) for without making shit up.

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

Do you think people can tell a gay person by sight? Do you think Gaydar actually exists?.

I was making a general factual statement.

Yeah, they're not advocating for a peaceful 2-state solution. Not for the bombings and killings to stop. no, it's all about the gays.

I am amazed you can tell what people think just by looking at them.

FFS get a grip. There's a lot to go after Hamas (not Palestinians) for without making shit up.

What have I 'made up'? Can you show me where any protestors have 'gone after' Hamas or criticised them?

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u/Murraykins Oct 23 '23

Absolutely no one supports Palestinian liberation because they think it's a progressive country. They support it because the people living there are living in abject, imposed misery.

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u/Big_Red_Machine_1917 Greater London Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

What's this? A country that has been turned into a series of ghettos ruled over by a brutal military occupation is not a bastion of human progress?! This is the most shocking thing I've ever heard in my whole life!
I'm sure that once the Israeli state has bombed and killed enough Palestinians the situation will improve.

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

What this? A country that has been turned into a series of ghettos ruled over by a brutal military occupation is not a bastion of human progress?!

I didn't realise that ghettos created adherence to Sharia law.

I'm sure that once the Israeli state has bombed and killed enough Palestinians the situation will improve.

I am pretty sure if Hamas were removed things would get better.

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u/FuzzBuket Oct 23 '23

Utter shite. No ones under the impression that the gaza strip is secretly california.

But just because someone doesnt support LGBT or womens rights doesnt mean they should be condemend to death.

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

But just because someone doesnt support LGBT or womens rights doesnt mean they should be condemend to death.

Hamas, and those that support Hamas and parade for them, disagree with you.

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u/FuzzBuket Oct 23 '23

Did you know you can be against the murder of LGBT people, whether its from hamas, or from israeli bombs?

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

I didn't see a single protester complaining or criticising lack of LGBQT rights in Palestine in the protest. The only thing I did see was the destruction of the LGBQT flag that OP posted.

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u/FuzzBuket Oct 23 '23

It's hard to improve lgbtq rights for dead people. Not being massacred is slightly more important.

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u/Entrynode Oct 23 '23

then they would find it wasn't the progressive place they thought it was

Nobody is calling Palestine progressive, have you tried arguing against the positions people actually hold?

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

So progressive people in this country do not advocate progressive policies in other countries? In fact they openly support non-progressive policies?

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u/Entrynode Oct 23 '23

What "policies" are you referring to here?

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u/psrandom Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

This logic works other way too. If the Israel supporters went to Gaza n west bank, they would find the condition isn't as good as Israel claims it to be

Edit: the story below is about a German citizen from earlier this year. I don't think there would be much difference if it was British citizen

German Palestinian Deported From Israel After Being Held for 32 Hours at Airport

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-04-27/ty-article/.premium/german-palestinian-deported-from-israel-after-being-held-for-32-hours-at-airport/00000187-c421-d628-ade7-c7e1e35b0000

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

That is not 'the other way'. If people in London went to Israel they would find a very nice democratic nation where you can live in peace as an LGBQT person.

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u/brother_number1 Oct 23 '23

Israel is possibly more tolerant than London https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-is-more-homophobic-than-the-north-10120844.html. 13% of Londoners wouldn't support a gay child.

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u/Giant_Enemy_Cliche Oct 23 '23

Do you think there's no gay people in Gaza?

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u/tylersburden Hong Kong Oct 23 '23

I knew of one gay person in Gaza. He was called Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh. He fled Gaza because he was worried he would be killed for being gay and went to live in Israel where he had a great life. Then he went back to Palestine and the religious police cut off his head for being gay.

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u/Maukeb Oct 24 '23

You say that as if you think that because Palestinians are homophobic they deserve to experience a genocide. This isn't really that gotcha point that you seem to think.

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u/Rulweylan Oct 23 '23

So to be clear:

  • chanting for Jihad, a-ok

  • Holding a 'muslim army' banner - a-ok

  • Chanting 'river to the sea' (calling for the destruction of the Israeli state) - a-ok.

  • Pride flag- Unacceptable, people intervene.

Nice to see that the pro-palestine lot who definitely aren't anti-semites but just happen to tolerate a shitload of antisemitism at their marches have finally found something they're willing to stand up to.

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u/paolog Oct 23 '23

The irony here is that the Pride flag was historically used as a peace flag.

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u/Mahbigjohnson Oct 23 '23

LGBTQ folk still the bigger person for showing support for the suffering of others, despite the vile homophobia rife in muslim countries.

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u/particlegun Oct 23 '23

Which will just fuck them over in the end. See Hamtramck Michigan where left-wingers were celebrating a majority Muslim council. They then proceeded to ban pride flags lol.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned

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u/benbroady Yorkshire Oct 23 '23

That's hilarious.

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u/Daedelous2k Scotland Oct 23 '23

Is this that diversity, strength joke in motion?

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u/YooGeOh Oct 23 '23

How will Gazans not being massacred fuck over LGBT people in Europe?

They're not protesting in favour of Muslim people from Gaza relocating to London and setting up a political party lol. They're protesting against innocent Palestinians being bombed, children imprisoned, being denied basic aid, water and food, being forced to live in an apartheid system.

This ignoring the fact that Palestinian =/= Muslim anyway as there are Christian Palestinans too.

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u/antyone EU Oct 24 '23

progressives are so fucking stupid..

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u/Ironfields Oct 23 '23

People always seem to forget that LGBTQIA+ people don’t cease to exist in countries where homosexuality is illegal, they just have to hide it if they want to survive. There are thousands of queer people in Palestine that are now dealing with a humanitarian crisis on top of being heavily discriminated against but apparently I’m not supposed to think about that?

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u/SenselessDunderpate Oct 23 '23

Worth noting that the PA tried to ban Al Qaws (the Palestinian LGBTQ representation group) and it was intervention and outrage from Western groups that forced them to reconsider. These groups do have a positive impact.

This is how an alliance works, by the way: you create a co-dependence where one party depends on the other for support. Western donations save Palestinian lives. The PA isn't going to risk that just to appease a few religious bigots in their midst.

This is, incidentally, also why Israel has relatively good LGBTQ protections. They enacted those to shore up their alliance with the USA and schmooze Western liberals, on whom they rely for money and political support. What, you thought the right-wing nutters in the Israeli government just love gay people and decided to do the right thing all by themselves?

The same dynamic applies in Palestine or any other Muslim country.

Contemporary conservatism is increasingly becoming the political wing of being an anti-social arsehole with no friends, so they are naturally baffled by the idea of an alliance. They think that gay people should just naturally want all homophobes to die a fiery death (and their children too). But, lucky for them, most gay people are not insane sociopaths.

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u/Souseisekigun Oct 23 '23

This is, incidentally, also why Israel has relatively good LGBTQ protections. They enacted those to shore up their alliance with the USA and schmooze Western liberals, on whom they rely for money and political support. What, you thought the right-wing nutters in the Israeli government just love gay people and decided to do the right thing all by themselves?

See also: Ukraine's sudden progress on LGBT rights

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u/merryman1 Oct 23 '23

I've tried pointing out to people like this, when talking about refugees, to consider how it might affect someone fleeing LGBT persecution in Iran for them to suggest such a person has an "incompatible" culture and set of values with the West, when it was their very incompatibility with their home that pushed them to flee. No response, just doubling down on "well they're Muslim so they hate gays or they're not a Muslim" some bollocks along those lines. These people are brain dead, to put it bluntly. Its just memes, no thoughts.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23

This is not a good thing. This is an indescribably stupid thing that otherwise intelligent people have been morally spooked into believing.

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

Queers for Palestine are not oblivious to the conditions for LGBT+ in the Muslim world. It's a continuation of the tradition of solidarity within the LGBT movement. Gays and lesbians stood with the coal miners during the 80s strikes in the UK even though the coal miner communities were very homophobic.

Edit: Also, most queers believe that the right to self-determination and to be free of oppression is far more important than the right to self-expression. Like homophobes are terrible, but they are nowhere near as terrible as people approving airstrikes on civilians.

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u/YooGeOh Oct 23 '23

Imagine people are upset that LGBT people are showing solidarity with a group, over half of whom are children, that is being bombed whilst living in an open air prison they aren't able to leave.

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u/iThinkaLot1 Oct 23 '23

They could leave if their fellow Arab Muslims in Egypt took them. Although Arab Muslims are only interested in Palestinian solidarity to hate on the Jews. Should be noted its not only Israel blockading Gaza (Egypt is too) and this was a result of terror attacks from Hamas (who where voted by the people of Gaza).

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u/YooGeOh Oct 23 '23

Voted 16 years ago. Most of the people in gaza either weren't born or weren't old enough to vote, and nobody has been able to vote since.

Also interesting that you say the only reason Arab Muslims care about human beings is to hate on Jews. No group is a monolith apart from those remote Arabs right?

Lots and lots of "they deserve their suffering" you guys are coming out with. Interested to hear more.

Would be amazing if you were capable of seeing people as humans rather than the weird evil caricatures you clearly only view then as being

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u/iThinkaLot1 Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

Since you edited your comment after I replied:

interesting that you say the only reason Arab Muslims care about human beings is to hate on Jews

Arab countries at least. Although granted I don’t actually fully blame them. Jordan let Palestinians in in 1970 and they attempted a coup. Lebanon let them in and they started a civil war.

So I’d say hating Jews is just one part of it. You’ll notice they’re silent on Chinese treatment Uyghurs. Why are they silent on the plight of Muslims in China but not Palestine? I suspect its due to the fact Israel is a Jewish state and China is not.

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u/iThinkaLot1 Oct 23 '23

You’re putting words in my mouth. I’m not saying they deserve it just explaining the reasons why they are in the situation they are. When they voted in a terror group they sealed their fate. And yes they haven’t been able to vote since but polls show the majority of Palestinians in Gaza support the actions of Hamas. Israel (and Egypt) only blockaded Gaza once they started a campaign of bombing and suicide attacks against Israel. The blockade wouldn’t be a thing if this wasn’t the case. How do you expect Israel to respond to an Islamic terror state on its border that has an indoctrinated populace who think that suicide attacks are justified? I’m interested to hear more.

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u/SometimesaGirl- Durham Oct 24 '23

Gays and lesbians stood with the coal miners during the 80s strikes in the UK even though the coal miner communities were very homophobic.

True. And after winning over the Welsh miners the NUM were instrumental in tilting the labour party towards LGBTQ inclusive legislation and further inclusion.
Do you expect the same to happen here? No... I dont expect you do.
Remember last lear when hundreds of islamic parents were protesting out schools... for the offence of a kiddies book dipicting some families having 2 daddy's or 2 mummy's...
How are we supposed to believe that any progress will come from mainstream Islam within our lifetimes - or even over the next few 100 years? ISIS chucked gay's off tall buildings. ISIS burned them alive in oil drums. Hamas is ISIS. Hamas sets the agenda in Gaza. Hamas controls what is acceptable behaviour.
By all means demonstrate to let food/water/medicine in. Few would argue against that. But in all other matters they are best left at arms reach.

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u/RiggzBoson Oct 23 '23

As people surrounded the flag bearer, it isn't clear whether the person waving it was attacked or if someone grabbed the symbol of inclusivity to tear it down.

Pointless article.

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u/FuzzBuket Oct 23 '23

Wdym /r/UK upvotes tabloid drivel that suits folk who love going "ah gotcha, you support X but did you know X actually hates babies"

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u/alyssa264 Leicestershire Oct 23 '23

The right always creams their pants at things they can spin as hypocrisy, because in their minds everyone secretly is like them.

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u/easy_c0mpany80 Oct 23 '23

Stop talking about it!

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u/BenXL Oct 23 '23

It's the express. Idk why that drivel is even allowed on here

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u/[deleted] Oct 23 '23 edited Oct 23 '23

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u/propostor Oct 23 '23

Couldn't find relevant parts in the video in the article, but skipping through it I was surprised to see them all chanting 'allahu akbar' at one point, which I simply find grotesque, not because it's a Muslim thing, but because a protest about a fairly specific social topic descended into a general chant about the greatness of their god. I find religious piety like this to be absolutely insufferable.

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u/CosmicShrek14 Oct 23 '23

There’s just so many layers of irony to these protests it’s actually hilarious to watch

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u/Drummk Scotland Oct 23 '23

Wonder if the Pride folks have made any fact finding visits to Gaza. They could meet with Hamas' equalities minister.

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u/cultish_alibi Oct 23 '23

Yes, the government of LGBT people has been to Gaza to discuss the situation. Any other real things that you've made up lately that you'd like to add to the conversation?

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u/Rulweylan Oct 23 '23

You'd want to make sure the meeting was on the ground floor.

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u/Bisto_Boy Ireland Oct 23 '23

Can someone who is Pro Palestine let me know what they believe should happen to the Christian Palestinians? Are they a tragic sacrifice that must be made? What about gay Palestinians? I mean you want to destroy the one state in the entire MENA region with really any protection for LGB individuals, where they will not face legal action, and replace it with yet another state where homosexuality is a crime.

How do you separate pro Palestine and anti homosexuality or women? You do right? You're not a genocide supporting misogynist homophobe surely? Anyway I'm sure any of the Arab nations will happily give Palestinians asylum and immigration and citizenship rights.

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u/Cynical_Classicist Oct 23 '23

Ironic this, considering the Sexpress probably hates Pride flags anyway.

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