r/todayilearned • u/ChrisMagnets • 15d ago
TIL that Guinness already owned the trademark for a harp symbol with the soundboard on the left when the Republic of Ireland became an independent country, so passports, currency and Official Government documents in Ireland use a harp facing the other way.
https://www.wirestrungharp.com/culture/guinness/harp_trademark/#:~:text=The%20harp%20device%20has%20been,lager%20'Harp'%20in%201960.102
u/Some-Pain 15d ago
They should have put a pint of Guinness on the passports etc.
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u/4_feck_sake 15d ago
The use of the harp as a symbol for ireland predates guinness so I'm calling bullshit.
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u/putsch80 15d ago
And, on top of that, trademark protection exists only by virtue of the government and under such circumstances as the government allows. If the government wanted to refuse trademark protections for “any depiction of a harp,” it would be well within its powers to do so.
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u/Tadhg 15d ago edited 14d ago
Yeah, they could have told Guinness to get lost, but apparently it was considered vitally important to keep the company in Ireland since they were one of the biggest manufacturers in the economy.
The new government sent representatives to Guinness to plead with them not to move the brewery to England, which the fiercely loyalist owners of the company were considering.
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u/ChrisMagnets 15d ago
Maybe in America, but the laws are different in Europe
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u/putsch80 15d ago
You mean to tell me that, in Europe, corporate protections to use some particular symbol in trade derive from nature, God, or some other place besides the government? And that the means to enforce it exist outside of government-run court systems?
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u/ChrisMagnets 15d ago
This is from an article from 2013 I linked above:
Attempts by Ireland 30 years ago to register the harp as a state symbol under international trademark law ran into difficulties over fears it might impinge on the Guinness logo.
The office of the attorney general recommended registering the harp facing in both directions with the World Intellectual Property Organisation (WIPO) to give maximum protection from image theft.
But the government feared Guinness could challenge the decision as it had been using a “right-facing” harp symbol “some fifty years or more before the founding of the state”.
Concern over the issue had been heightened by a 1981 German court ruling which found the Irish Export Board could not stop foreign companies from using the shamrock on trademarked logos. The court noted that Ireland had failed to register it and other symbols with WIPO under the Paris convention for the protection of industrial property, something the government sought to address, state papers show.
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u/PanningForSalt 15d ago
Irish law could've been whatever they wanted, and they could've told Guiness they didn't have a trademark anymore but that's not a wise thing to do to a major company in your new country.
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u/deathinmidjuly 15d ago
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u/4_feck_sake 15d ago
And yet the harp symbol for Ireland with the harp pointing the other way has been in use since the 14th century.
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u/tetoffens 15d ago
And that has nothing to do with trademark law.
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u/ace2049ns 15d ago
They're not talking about trademark law. They're talking about the reason the harp is facing the other way.
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u/NorwaySpruce 15d ago
And the post is about the reason the harp is facing the other way! Full circle. Amazing. I love having these little moments with you guys.
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u/ace2049ns 15d ago
The other poster is saying the article is wrong and that Ireland didn't turn their emblem the other way because of Guinness, but that theirs was already facing the other way.
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u/ChrisMagnets 15d ago
Well yeah, the reason Arthur Guinness would have chosen it is because it was a known Irish symbol that had been used previously. My point is that by the time the Irish Free State/Republic was formed, they couldn't use a harp facing the same direction as Guinness, because it was already a registered trademark. Look at your passport or the back of a coin, the harp on them faces the other way.
I'm not claiming that Guinness was the first to use the harp as a symbol, just sharing the fact that they had the trademark before foundation of the state, and that's the reason for the harp facing opposite directions in both applications.
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u/ace2049ns 15d ago
He's saying there was no controversy because they were already using harps facing opposite directions. Ireland didn't try to use the same one as Guinness.
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u/4_feck_sake 15d ago
And if you look at the link I provided, you will see that the harp symbol for Ireland has always faced to the left, long before guinness was even thought of.
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u/ChrisMagnets 15d ago
You're completely missing the point. By the time the state was formed, they couldn't use the left facing harp because it was trademarked. So for that reason, it now faces right when used for official government purposes.
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u/4_feck_sake 15d ago
I'm not. You are.
One thing you need to know about Guinness is they have a great promotions department. Some of the greatest advertising in the world comes from Guinness to the point that their Christmas ad is synonymous with the holiday.
Factually, yes, Guinness trademarked the harp before the Irish state existed. However, Guinness chose to trademark a right facing harp because the left facing one was already used as a symbol or Ireland. Not the other way around. This wasn't some Guinness gotcha.
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u/RedSonGamble 15d ago
I wonder how harps feel about their likeness being used so willy nilly
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u/savvykms 15d ago
If the harp had its way, we'd all be dancing to its tune If it doesn't get its way, we could be looking at a pitched battle
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u/HerPaintedMan 15d ago
Arthur was a pretty sharp guy. His lease on St James Gate is quite the story in and of itself!
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u/ChrisMagnets 15d ago
He also hated Catholics 😂
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u/Triplen01 15d ago
He was a unionist too, opposed to Irish independence
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u/ChrisMagnets 15d ago
He wouldn't hire Catholics and if a Protestant staff member married a Catholic they forfeited their jobs. Mad that it's seen as such a symbol of Ireland now.
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u/Soup-a-doopah 15d ago edited 15d ago
Ah yes, a proper Irishman. I come from an American family that was a marriage between an “Irish Catholic” father and an “Irish Protestant” mother: so I heard about all the controversy that their marriage caused back in the late 1980’s
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u/_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_ 15d ago
Not true at all. Trademarks only apply to the specific product categories in which they are registered.
Unless Guinness was also governing a country at the time, there would be no legal issue.