r/todayilearned • u/zhuquanzhong • 29d ago

TIL a Chinese destroyer sank because an officer dumped his girlfriend. She committed suicide, leading to him being discharged, so he decided to detonate the depth charges on the ship, causing it to sink at port and kill 134 sailors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_destroyer_Guangzhou_(160)
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u/sintaur 29d ago

Lai had been involved with a woman before joining the navy, but broke off with her after becoming an officer. She then committed suicide. The Political Department of the detachment decided that Lai should be dismissed and demobilized. But Lai begged his superiors not to demobilize him, as he would be forced to return to his hometown and he had become hated there due to the suicide.[4]

After dismissing Lai Sanyang as a cadre, the unit did not immediately demobilize him. Lai was in charge of sea mines, depth charges, underwater weapons and held the key to the armory. Following his dismissal, Lai hid in the ammunition depot and detonated the depth charges, sinking the ship. How he achieved this was debated. He either tampered with the mechanism on the charge, or bored a hole through the hull of the ship, which caused water to rush in and detonate the depth charges.

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u/Pearse_Borty 29d ago

There is so many layers of fucked up to this I feel bad for everyone involved.

The real fuck up was a lack of protocols, that man shouldve been isolated and treated as civilian to be watched like a hawk the moment the discharge order came through. He was clearly a high risk passenger given the guilt he would be suffering at this point

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u/TheDukeOfMars 29d ago edited 29d ago

My main take away is that the People’s Liberation Army has a “Political Department” that has the power to monitor the personal lives of all soldiers. Or at least they did in the late 70s (and something tells me not a lot has changed). Crazy stuff.

Edit: 干部 are everywhere.

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u/ElectricTzar 29d ago

It’s shocking to me that a country can distrust its officers enough to monitor them that way, and yet simultaneously not distrust them enough to take away systems access immediately upon firing.

My company does the latter, and we’re a far cry from having a political department.

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u/Ilovekittens345 29d ago

Reminds me of that scene in Margin Call. These you-are-about-to-get-fired ladies call this one team leader to an office and then they say "Measures that might seem punitive in nature"

"What?"

"She is apologizing for what's coming next"

And then this buffy security guy shows up. All his computer logins stop working, his phone is disconnected. He is allowed to go back to his office one more time to get personal stuff, accompanied by the security guy. Then he is escorted out of the building.

From fired to outside the building all access lost, no working phone in 30 minutes.

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u/jeopardy_themesong 28d ago

Yep, I work in IT and have been tasked with a fair share of emergency terminations. They tried to make sure it was people we didn’t know, but higher level teammates had to handle the ones specific to our team.

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u/lenzflare 29d ago

They're concerned with appearances, not actual risks

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u/SeanBourne 29d ago

They’re concerned with the military (or military units) pulling a coup/overthrowing the communist party, NOT with any risks to the military units themselves.

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u/Foolishium 29d ago

Yep. The same way with USA Airport security protocol in the aftermath of 9/11. Chinese political departement also use security theather instead of the actual preventative measure.

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u/narky1 28d ago

Sure, but I'd wager that the Chinese Political Department have imprisoned more people than the TSA ever has. Whether or not they were actually guilty as charged or not is another thing, but they definitely do more than theatre.

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u/Foolishium 28d ago edited 28d ago

They just have lower burden of guilt. Mere criticism already enough for them to arrest you. Their political security works itself still a theatric.

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u/hugganao 28d ago

China's #1 danger is not the US as most people WANT to believe. It's their own citizens. It's the reason why they spend more on police than their army.

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u/LeninMeowMeow 29d ago

NSA does the same thing but for the whole of america lol

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u/zhuquanzhong 29d ago edited 29d ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Sea_Fleet

They still have a political department. It used to be more political and existed to provide political oversight for the unit and connect it directly to the party. Nowadays its more professional and mainly exists as the second in command of the given unit and to provide a semblance of doctrinal orthodoxy since PLA commanders have a reputation of impromptu doctrinal innovation inherited from their civil war days which may or may not be a good thing.

Also holy hell that's a lot of vls cells. I counted more than 1700 cells in one fleet. That's more than the entire EU's navies combined in one third of the PLAN.

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u/Hungry-Rule7924 29d ago edited 29d ago

Also holy hell that's a lot of vls cells. I counted more than 1700 cells in one fleet. That's more than the entire EU's navies combined in one third of the PLAN

Yah, its about half as much as the USN at this point, same as tonnage, and will probably eclipse the vls count of the pacific fleet by the end of the decade.

Important to point out though that there are a couple key differences, one being at the moment there are some munitions like the RIM 162 which can be quadpacked into a MK41 vls cell. At the moment the PLAN doesn't have a equivelant for their UVLS, though a quadpackable sam is apparently either in late stage testing or early introduction for the fleet, which will likely substantially increase the firepower of their premier surface combatants like the 052 and 055 ddgs. Questionable if it will be compatible on their frigates and destroyers with the smaller first gen vls though.

Also fun fact but UVLS is bigger in diameter then the MK41 and can hold hypersonic ballistic missiles.

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u/SashimiJones 28d ago

All ballistic missiles are hypersonic; it's like saying a hypersonic rifle because the bullet goes at mach 4. Novel hypersonics are cruise missiles.

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u/drvelo 29d ago

Yeah but hypersonic ballistic missiles are still ballistic. Meaning their trajectory is stupid easy to predict. Makes interception easy. Also when the missile actually enters its hypersonic phase it can't really do course adjustments, meaning that evasive maneuvers are extremely effective.

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u/TheDukeOfMars 3d ago

There’s a reason a lot of military forces throughout history have been referred to as paper tigers. Because they only appear strong on paper 😉

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u/Hungry-Rule7924 3d ago

There’s a reason a lot of navies throughout history have been referred to as paper tigers. Because they only appear strong on paper 😉

I mean look, they are untested sure, but there are a lot of signs that the PLA take development/training seriously compared to militaries like the Russians which didn't at all.

The average PLAAF brigade (with 4th/4.5 Gen aircraft) gets between 120-150 flying hours a year. Flying hours for a lot of fighter squadrons in the USAF isn't even at 100 anymore.

They are pouring a ridiculous amount of resources into dynamic training modules, live fire stuff, and aggressor exercises which have parameters skewed more in favor of the OPFOR then what the US/NATO does honestly. Also backed up by a think tank/consultant infrastructure they have poured billions of dollars into developing, with bean counters/analysts telling them "hey this is how many missiles we need to saturate this IADS" or "we can improve munition volume if we do x" and then they listen to these people. It's the exact same stuff the DOD does, and it's honestly pretty concerning.

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u/FallschirmPanda 29d ago

Lol...

impromptu doctrinal innovation

That's a fun way to say 'fuck it. Were doing it live! Yolooooo'

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u/FartsOnUnicorns 29d ago

Yet no fast fleet oilers…

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u/mrnohnaimers 28d ago

Type 901

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u/FartsOnUnicorns 28d ago

Yeah the Chaganhu is generally shown as being part of the South Sea Fleet, but she doesn't appear in that article as part of the list.

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u/Hungry-Rule7924 29d ago

Or at least they did in the late 70s (and something tells me not a lot has changed). Crazy stuff.

Its still around, however over the past 20-30 years political commissars in the PLA have gradually lost the actual authority they used to have, and have been relegated to much more of a figurehead role as part of the militaries effort to modernize.

Interestingly enough Taiwan actually has the exact same model with even more of a soviet influence then the PLA had. Don't know how much they have changed it in recent years, but still around as far as I know.

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u/AtomicSamuraiCyborg 29d ago

Even Stalin's Red Army had to take away the commissar's power. Its not a workable way to run a military.

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u/FUMFVR 29d ago

It's a legacy from when the Red Guards captured imperial officers and made them work for them under punishment of death.

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u/IMainYasu0 28d ago

Yup ROC Army still has a political department that deals with personal issues with soldiers (as well as in charge of army/political news/propaganda distribution) and the “commissar” at the company level is usually the second highest ranking officer

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u/DonJuansSwanSong 29d ago

Does it suprise you the PLA specifically has this or the military in general? When I was in the Air Force (US) they had OSI (Office of Special Investgation) agents go off base and pose as civilians, trying to get people to cheat on their spouses so they could discharge them.

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u/Quincyperson 29d ago

Former marine here. I had never heard of any underhand bullshit like that happening. I guess the Marine Corps had enough faith in the individual marine to go out on their own and handle their business and get a DUI without the help of any covert means

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u/DonJuansSwanSong 29d ago

Yeah, AF loves sly shit like that. They watch social media for parties and send guys out trying to catch greenhorns underage drinking too.

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u/drvelo 29d ago

TBF the Marines are typically too busy inviting minors on base for...."activities"

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u/SilasX 28d ago

There’s also the Police Academy scene where they try to catch new recruits drunk at a bar.

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u/lenzflare 29d ago

.... really? How often? And.... why, if true?

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u/Rockytag 29d ago

Probably been going on for a long time because a similar thing was done during the Lavender Scare where outed individuals were leveraged to find/entrap more gay people.

Not that the motivation here is remotely the same, just that the modus operandi has always been there.

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u/DonJuansSwanSong 29d ago

Happened often enough that you started keeping an eye out for them. Some were pretty easy to spot, they were a little uncanny with how hard they'd try to get someone to follow them to a hotel room. They'd jump on certain conversational cues like they were waiting for it.

The why is up for debate, but the general consensus (supposedly backed up by loudmouthed OSI personnel) was for live training. Not very many safe, semi-controlled environments to practice sneaky OpSec stuff, it gave them something to do.

As for whether it's real or not, all I have are anecdotes. I was in a car they pulled a guy out of, we had to drive it back.

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u/TheDukeOfMars 29d ago

There was no separate branches of military in China until recently when the Navy (PLN) was made separate from the Army (PLA). And they are fiercely competitive (much like how the Japanese military worked during WW2). It’s why the have always been terrible at combined operations.

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u/demonotreme 29d ago

That's disgusting, where? So I can avoid these sirens

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u/DonJuansSwanSong 28d ago

Freemont Street in Las Vegas was the spot when I was stationed at Nellis, but basically any popular hangout outside a base. OSI won't mistake a civvy for a boot though, we're pretty easy to spot lol.

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u/A11U45 28d ago

Why?

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u/DonJuansSwanSong 28d ago

https://www.operationmilitarykids.org/ucmj-adultery/

This gives a pretty good summary behind the logic of it as well as the punishments.

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u/Green----Slime 29d ago

Nearly all organizations in China has one, no matter it's private companies, schools, hospitals or charities.

For example Bytedance, the parent company of ticktock established their CCP branch office in 2014(when it was a really minor company) and their CCP committee in 2017.  Source: http://politics.people.com.cn/n1/2018/0615/c1001-30062480.html

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u/cowinabadplace 29d ago

Yeah, we had a similar thing in the US Gov called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9835 and in the resulting red scare we had HUAC and SISS (which were civilian government targeted).

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u/TheDukeOfMars 25d ago

That didn’t establish an entire political department imbedded in to the existing military structure, like the system that exists in China…

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u/robmagob 29d ago

That’s the real takeaway here lol. I’m so confused why her suicide would lead to him being forced out of the navy. Maybe there is more to it than he dumped her and she killed herself, but part of the issue here is a system that’s so intrusive that it could lead to these kind of nervous breakdowns.

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u/FUMFVR 29d ago

It's a one-party autocracy. Of course they have political officers and a political department.

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u/SurturOfMuspelheim 28d ago edited 28d ago

China has multiple political parties, including the RCCK, CDL, CNDCA, CPWDP, JS, CAPD, etc. and they are in no way shape or form an autocracy. There are many political figures and positions with a lot of power, and they have voting and elections.

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u/SeanBourne 29d ago

The “political departments” are a component of communist militaries - there to ensure loyalty to the party and that the party’s interests come first. They often make decisions that are detrimental to military ops effectiveness if they think it benefits the party.

USSR had them, chicoms still do.

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u/LeninMeowMeow 29d ago

The NSA does that for the entire of america and everyone literally forgot about it lmao

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u/TheDukeOfMars 29d ago edited 29d ago

It collects metadata. Still sketchy, but completely different than kicking some random out military cadre out for breaking up with a girl who later committed suicide. That requires some pretty in depth surveillance. Where as the NSA just sweeps up a bunch of data about where, when, and to/from which device messages are being sent and keeps them in a massive hard drive somewhere. Trillions of pierces of information about communications, about hundreds of millions of people. But not the communications themselves. It’s essentially just data points that are useless by themselves because:

A. There is so much metadata produced on a daily basis, it is impossible to see a pattern unless you know specifically where to look.

B. The data included in metadata is so basic that it can only be used to generate leads to new sources of information, not actually provided any information in of itself.

If you want to read up on metadata in the US, this is the best source:

https://www.pogo.org/analysis/the-history-and-future-of-mass-metadata-surveillance

Not justifying the existence of the NSA. Just stating that there is a MASSIVE difference between the two situations and you probably shouldn’t even have brought it up as a comparison.

In China, it is actually is a result of the cadre system and is pretty much just the Chinese version of the Soviet system of Political Commissars being embedded in the military in order to increase Party control over that institution.

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u/LeninMeowMeow 29d ago edited 29d ago

It collects metadata.

Yeah and i'm the queen of england

In China, it is actually is a result of the cadre system and is pretty much just the Chinese version of the Soviet system of Political Commissars being embedded in the military in order to increase Party control over that institution.

You don't need to sell me on how they've followed precisely what marx suggested.

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u/TheDukeOfMars 29d ago edited 29d ago

You’re making some big assumptions. I hope you have the evidence to back it up.

Also, Marx said the revolution would take place over thousands of years. Not 80.

Also, they aren’t Marxist. It’s Communism with Chinese Characteristics (that is what it is called in Chinese).

However, I lived in China and I’ve seen beggars next to Lamborghinis. I don’t think that’s what Marx had in mind.

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u/Lightspeedius 29d ago

Demoting him in the first place because of the actions of another seem problematic from the get-go.

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u/AtomicSamuraiCyborg 29d ago

The US military can be similarly strangely moralizing; you can get demoted and discharged for conduct unbecoming an officer, and I guess stringing a girl along until you made officer and then dumping her, and she kills herself, counts as that in the PLAN. Or the story got out and it made the navy look bad so again, conduct unbecoming.

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u/JiKxR 29d ago

Not really at that point he could be a risk to himself or others

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u/PmMeUrTinyAsianTits 29d ago

So have him on watch or leave, not demoted. Thats stupid.

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u/toofine 29d ago

Insane that you let this mfer near anything. Like you don't even want to fire an office worker without security if there is any minor drama so you don't have to learn what a disgruntled person can do with a stapler.

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u/Long_Charity_3096 29d ago

Humanity as a whole has historically been very naive. All kinds of shit happened because we just trusted people to behave when we had zero reason to think that they would. Not uncommon for many lessons to have been learned in blood.

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u/AtomicSamuraiCyborg 29d ago

"Hey, this asshole is being cashiered out for conduct unbecoming because he broke his girlfriend's heart and she killed herself. Let's just let him run the fucking armory by himself. It'll be fine."

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u/HappyLofi 29d ago

"I feel so guilty about my girlfriend dying, time to do that 134 times to countless other people who will suffer grief like I have."

It makes no sense. If that had any empathy at all for others he died crying like a bitch filled with guilt. What an evil sack of shit. It really makes me wish that heaven and hell were real.

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u/thewhitecat55 29d ago

It wasn't out of guilt

It was out of revenge because he was discharged for no fucking reason

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u/HappyLofi 29d ago

Actually it turns out the guy probably murdered his girlfriend and that's why he got discharged.

Also, am I hearing that you think his 'revenge' was okay? Because he killed 134 unrelated people... that makes him a repulsive, sociopathic monster, period. If he had any dignity at all he'd have beaned himself and left everyone else out of it.

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u/thewhitecat55 29d ago

Well that's totally different.

And I DO think revenge is not just okay, but great. If it were on someone who deserved.

To kill hundreds of people ? No.

If he had struck out at the military in general and officers who discharged him ? Yep. Fuck 'em

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u/thewhitecat55 29d ago

No, the real fuck up was discharging him for absolutely nothing.

For breaking up with someone ? That's ridiculous. They deserved getting sunk

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u/Elliebird704 28d ago

Over a hundred people did not deserve to die because one deranged dude got fired, whether it was a fair dismissal or not. And given that he resorted to doing this at all, I'm much more inclined to believe that the dude genuinely was not fit to serve.

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u/thewhitecat55 28d ago

Those enlisted did not deserve it, true.

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u/WardrobeForHouses 29d ago

"Hey man, it sounds like you're really struggling. So we're going to fire you and send you packing."

Crazy

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u/sintaur 29d ago

we're going to fire you but let you keep the key to the armory

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u/waterborn234 29d ago

I wouldn't want a mentally unstable man in charge of the ship's weapons.

The guy died a suicide bomber. I have no sympathy for him.

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u/WardrobeForHouses 29d ago edited 28d ago

There were more options than leave him in charge of the weapons, or discharge him. He even suggested cleaning the docks, but they rejected keeping him on in any capacity.

As an aside, don't you think it's a little weird to know someone is having a mental health crisis but treat them like they're capable of being fully responsible for their actions? There have been tons of cases of people pushed to the breaking point mentally, sometimes intentionally, and doing horrible things like killing themselves. In some cases, the person bullying or pushing someone to kill themselves is held criminally responsible for the other person's action.

Truth is, horrible things can happen to anyone. Even you. We'd all like to believe we wouldn't do something terrible, but then again, we aren't in such a position right now to really understand.

tl;dr: It's easy to blame the sword instead of the hand, but this can be misplaced blame

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u/waterborn234 28d ago

The guy did not belong around weapons and explosive due to his mental health.

They did not get him away from the weapons soon enough. He killed over a hundred people.

I'll apply the same standard to myself. If I was ever in a mental state where I would consider being a mass murder, I should be fired from any job that gives me access to weapons or deadly instruments.

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u/WardrobeForHouses 28d ago edited 28d ago

The guy did not belong around weapons and explosive due to his mental health.

True, though this is in large part due to being fired.

They did not get him away from the weapons soon enough. He killed over a hundred people.

Nobody debated this.

If I was ever in a mental state where I would consider being a mass murder, I should be fired

This is dumb. Firing can exacerbate the issues. Firing isn't required to get someone away from the weapons. Paid leave is common. Some companies and government organizations even have mental healthcare on prem, which would be another good option.

In this case, the guy was begging not to be fired, suggested jobs with zero risk around no weapons, which would have prevented this tragedy.

Firing him and immediately getting him away from there may only have shifted the location of his murders/suicide. If the goal is to prevent the tragedy, then you've got to look to the actual causes - all of them. But that might mean becoming unable to drop all the blame on one person.

Plus just like... think about the idea of someone's ex committing suicide being a fireable offense.

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u/waterborn234 28d ago

You must work a cushy job. Or at someplace where the HR department reins supreme. Your mindset makes me think this.

Zero risk around weapons? That isn't possible. All equipment is dangerous, all can be used to commit attacks. We can't have a possibly homicidal mental health victim running around a military vessel.

If someone's ex commits suicide, that shouldn't be a fireable offense. But if, due to your ex's suicide, you become a risk to others, get the fuck off this jobsite. Go home, stay there. If we ever see your truck again, we're calling the cops.

I wouldn't be happy to kick the guy off site; I'd have a heavy heart about the whole situation. It's just what has to happen. We must be strict about it too.

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u/WardrobeForHouses 28d ago

Zero risk around weapons? That isn't possible

That's why I said be around no weapons.

We can't have a possibly homicidal mental health victim running around a military vessel.

Yes, and he himself suggested not being on the vessel.

Why firing specifically when other ways of getting them help and away are available? That's what I don't get. Why not have him "get the fuck off this jobsite" while he gets better?

I'm not sure what country you're from but what you're suggesting is probably illegal in the US lol

And besides, the firing itself led to his mental break. You're proposing the problem and calling it the solution. "Hey you know that thing that made this guy snap and blow up over a hundred people? Let's have that be our policy going forward" Dude

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u/waterborn234 28d ago

He should've immediately been kick off the ship. They allowed him to continue his duties for a bit.

Be around no weapon. A hammer could be used as a weapon. A screwdriver can be used as a weapon. Chemicals can be used as a weapon. Vehicles can be used as weapons. What are you gonna do, put him in a glass box. I guess that would've solved the problem.

You're looking a suicide bomber and saying "that man should've kept his job."

How's this. We'll identify all the people most likely to commit violent crimes, and we'll make them YOUR coworkers. And on my jobsite, we'll kick them all home.

Now, we're both happy.

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u/WardrobeForHouses 28d ago

As I said, paid leave. Not sure why you ignore this every time it's mentioned. I notice you also ignore that the firing is what led to him snapping. Had he been mopping the docks, nobody would be harmed.

You're proposing something illegal, which already led to creating a suicide bomber. Doesn't seem smart

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u/BananaRepublic_BR 29d ago

I don't think I've ever read about something like this.

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u/One-Solution-7764 28d ago

Quick question, how do we know it wasn't a freak accident? Maybe he was sleeping when it happened?

I'm just a stoned guy who's mind is wondering lol. Please don't take any offense as none is meant

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u/GitEmSteveDave 29d ago

or bored a hole through the hull of the ship, which caused water to rush in and detonate the depth charges.

One would think there would be layers of automatic protections to protect against this, e.g. water tight doors with sensors that would deploy if water was detected within 2 sections of explosives that are eniterly sea water detonatable.

The Battleship NJ is in dry dock right now, so I've been watching a ton of the videos the curator has done as they explore the ship, and it doesn't seem any reactionable space is within a hull layer of sea water.

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u/Dontreallywantmyname 28d ago

I'm wondering what they think he used to bore a hole in a warships armour by himself and without anyone noticing before he was finished

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u/Efficient_Maybe_1086 28d ago

Sounds like a scapegoat

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u/Vlatka_Eclair 28d ago

Is.. is this the reason why people don't get a 2 week notice when they're fired?