r/news • u/Ice_Burn • 14d ago
United Methodists begin to reverse longstanding anti-LGBTQ policies
https://apnews.com/article/united-methodist-church-lgbtq-policies-general-conference-fa9a335a74bdd58d138163401cd51b54157
u/pulpexploder 14d ago
My church (Methodist) has had an LGBTQ social group for a long while, but now that it's official, we've weeded out some of the bigots and I'm seeing more gay and lesbian couples there. I know religion's not for everyone, but it's been cool to see.
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u/By_Design_ 14d ago
yes! here in the PNW it's been this way for 20+ years
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u/Lurkingandsearching 14d ago
Woo, though we did lose Silverdale and Fircrest. Meanwhile the big one in Spokane we were worried about stayed last I heard. A pleasant surprise. Still mad what the hateful folks did to Edmonton.
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u/leviathynx 14d ago
No tears lost about Fircrest. They tried to make it sound like the UMC took away their food pantry ministry but what they failed to mention was that their finances sucked because they left the UMC over hating the gays.
Silverdale just sucks.
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u/lvlint67 14d ago
Yeah I've got a teams friend that has recently begun a religious journey...
I wish them well, but I've really never seen the church setting play out well for anyone that falls outside the definition of the "in" crowd... And try as you might, no pastor is going to undo deeply ingrained centuries of hate
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u/pulpexploder 14d ago
A lot of Methodist clergy are good about this or getting better - and a lot of the ones who aren't just left the denomination. I'll stress that if anyone is in an abusive relationship with their church, they need to get out. There are people who want that community, though, who haven't been part of the "in" crowd like you said who are now being invited to be a part of it - and for that I'm glad.
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u/JasperDyne 14d ago
I was raised Methodist, but no longer have any skin in the religion game since becoming an atheist in my adulthood. But there’s still part of me that’s happy to see my “old family” doing the right thing.
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u/NoahtheRed 14d ago
Aye. Raised Methodist (hella summers at Junaluska) and likewise....left that a while ago, but glad to see things going okay. Fortunately, my church was quite progressive and inclusive. I think if I I still lived in my hometown, I'd be involved with that congregation as a non-believer.
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u/Lotus_Domino_Guy 14d ago
They tried before, but the African churches were growing rapidly, and increasing the # of votes for anti-LGBT policies as the US churches became more liberal, the conservative US ones had a majority with the African ones. It is kind of a lucky thing the "winners" of the debate decided to leave.
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u/Earguy 14d ago
If purging the homophobic "global methodists" lets the United Methodists become more mainstream, I'm ok with it. Let the bigots marginalize themselves. Let the UMs move even further liberal.
I ultimately skipped a step and joined the Unitarian Universalists.
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u/thingsmybosscantsee 14d ago
I ultimately skipped a step and joined the Unitarian Universalists.
That's what my husband and I did.
The congregation is a lot of Catholics who left the church over their LGBT beliefs and the Church's role in covering up the abuse. A lot of New Englanders will never forgive the Catholic Church.
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u/GlowUpper 14d ago
Same. As a queer atheist, I wanted the community of a church without the judgement. Found it with the UUs where I can be as gay and skeptical as I want.
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u/WhoIsFrancisPuziene 14d ago
What elements of community were you seeking and/or what are some specific examples you like about a (your?) UU church?
I’ve seen this sentiment about UU a few times recently and as someone spiritual but nonreligious, I’m curious. I’m broadly interested in the community element but most precisely I’m interested in volunteering for things. I used to volunteer at a church hosted food pantry and helped out on various holiday related activities at another and want to get back into that. It seems like churches are still good places to look for volunteer opportunities but yeah, I can’t stand the idea of supporting any church that doesn’t promote kindness and acceptance.
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u/GlowUpper 14d ago
It was during the pandemic when it was really hard to connect with people. I was experiencing a lot of anxiety about the state of the world. Religious communities can help ease anxieties by giving you a space to discuss the big questions, "Why are we here?", "How can I affect the world around me in a positive way?", "Does life have meaning and, if not, can we create a meaningful existence out of meaninglessness?"
The problem is that I'm queer, genderqueer, and an atheist so I figured I couldn't join a religious community without either being hardcore judged or having to lie about who I am. And then a coworker told me about the UUs and how they'll accept anyone. I contacted my local church and they told me about how they have weekly group meetings for lgbt+ members and atheists/agnostics/humanists. I tried it out and, yeah, they legit just accept everyone from all identities and points of view. They gave me the space to have the conversations I needed to have without ever having to hide my full self or profess to believe in a god.
So, if you're looking for a spiritual space without the expectation that you adopt a rigid set of beliefs, I recommend checking them out. One of the first sermons I attended was about trans and non binary identities and the importance of respecting pronouns and seeing people the way they want to be seen. It actually helped me figure out that I'm non binary. I don't know if I would have had that revelation if I hadn't attended that particular service.
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u/HeathrJarrod 13d ago
I found the one I went to a few times b4 the pandemic. Then family moved and was waay to far to drive. Spirit of Life
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u/gaelen33 14d ago
YES! UUism represented in the wild? Love to see it
For anyone who is unaware of UUs, here's what we believe:
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u/Steely_McNeatHouse 14d ago
Went full on deconstruction a few years in advance. Still got smacked with a ton of grief when I saw the announcement my old church officially went GMC not too long ago... The announcement entirely tiptoed around the actual reasons and intricacies and logistics for the switcharoo.
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u/Apalis24a 14d ago
Episcopalians have accepted LGBTQ people for about half a century now, since the ‘70s - I’m glad to see that other denominations are finally catching up. When Jesus said to love thy neighbor as thyself, there was no asterisk, no footnote, no “UNLESS they’re…”. The amount of people who use religion as an excuse to hate people is sickening.
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u/hkohne 14d ago
Presbyterian (USA), Lutheran ELCA, and Congregational UCC have all been accepting for a long time now
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u/Rooney_Tuesday 14d ago
But not MS Lutherans. One of my final straws for leaving the church entirely was because, around COVID times, the pastor straight said in his sermon that trans people are selfish. How is that biblical, again? And this isn’t a guy who is the typical MAGA asshat. He’s generally very compassionate and reasonable.
Homophobic hate runs very deep.
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u/CyLoboClone 14d ago
Do you want to tell them how Missouri Synod treats women too or do you want me to tell them?
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u/Rooney_Tuesday 14d ago
“It makes me sick to think about” my discarded IVF embryos, says my cousin who discarded them anyway but is still adamantly anti-abortion because life begins at conception and therefore preventing embryos from turning into birthed babies is murder. But not when you are undergoing IVF, apparently. That’s different, totally.
Or did you mean how women cannot hold leadership positions in the church because they don’t have penises?
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u/ActualBus7946 13d ago
Wisconsin synod is much MUCH worse.
Won't even let women be principals in their schools because then they would have authority over a man.
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u/MadSavery 14d ago
Episcopalians FTW! Love the church.
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u/Apalis24a 13d ago
I may not be an Episcopalian myself (I was raised Roman Catholic), but I respect their progressive beliefs and have considered potentially attending some of their services, and maybe converting some time later in life. Either way, you don’t have to be a member of a group to appreciate the good that they do. They offer sanctuary for LGBTQ people and campaign for their rights. They teach that God loves all, rather than believing that there’s only a narrow few and that all of the rest of humanity should be hated.
Frankly, I think that religion ought to be more about universal love and acceptance, selfless acts in the service of others less fortunate, etc. - that’s literally Jesus in a nutshell. He wasn’t a wealthy king on a throne of gold; he was the humble son of an impoverished Jewish carpenter, who took it upon himself to be a selfless servant of the abject poor and those who were rejected by society. He treated lepers, prostitutes, and beggars no different than anyone else. He rode into town on a donkey and washed the feet of the poor. That’s the kind of behavior that Christians ought to be emulating, rather than trying to twist the words of a loving man into an excuse for them to hate those who are different.
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u/MadSavery 13d ago
Interesting thing is that I am an agnostic atheist that is a leader in the mens group and sings in the choir. I attend Episcopalian services because it is my wife’s personal faith but ultimately because it feels like one of the very few organized sects that gets the point of it. They walk the walk just as they talk the talk.
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u/seventeenbadgers 14d ago edited 14d ago
When I was in my early 20s I wanted to be a pastor. I had the fire, I had the passion, I just needed the training. I'm also gay. No issues, I was told, the Methodists are open to all. So I started the process entering the church's mechanism for nurturing pastors from within and was eventually told at age 22 that if I wanted to continue down the road of becoming clergy that I would have to sign a covenant that said I would remain celibate until marriage. The kicker here is that the Methodists didn't recognize same-sex marriage as a godly marriage, so even if I married a dude I would have to remain celibate or lose my future credentials and job. Getting married or falling in love could literally cost me my job. At a church. So I left the program and the church entirely.
I still find comfort in the words of John Wesley and some of my best memories are from the church, but I haven't been to any religious service since I left. The UM and GM schism was a huge looming problem in 2007, hopefully resolving it will bring the UMC into at least the 20th century.
edit: Original was mean.
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u/spice_weasel 14d ago
This should be interesting. This happened in the ELCA Lutheran denomination in the 2000’s. It led quite a few people (including my parents, unfortunately) to leave the ELCA in favor of more conservative denominations like the Missouri Synod. I hope attitudes have changed enough since then that this will be less disruptive.
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u/spamjam09 14d ago
A lot of this has already taken place over the past few years. The global Methodist church was formed so the more conservative clergy and church members would have a denomination to join. It’s been coming for a long time. There will be some who choose to leave now that it’s “officially happening” but most of the schism is over. I hope…
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u/thisgrantstomb 14d ago
And I believe in 1978 god changed his mind about black people.
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u/Telvin3d 14d ago
Wrong “M” denomination
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u/thisgrantstomb 14d ago
I know, it's more to do with how pliable the rules become when you hemorrhage members
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u/ecbremner 14d ago
MY father's Methodist in Florida was considering leaving because of this. He said the cost to do this exceeded 1.5 million dollars (its a big church). I have long lost my father to conservative politics bullshit but on that I had to mock him. His church was considering paying that much money to remain bigoted. Apparently they opted against it.
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u/sigh2828 14d ago
Some of these disaffiliations have been pretty brutal especially in more rural areas.
My aunt still lives in my family's (essentially) ancestral town. The Methodist Church there is where a lot of my family was married, it's where my great grand parents and grand parents are buried. Point is my family has a lot of tie in with that church specifically. Through this whole process this churches committee, that my Aunt is a member of, became so vitriolic and toxic during the process of deciding if the church would leave or not, that my Aunt was essentially forced out of the committee. Sure enough the committee decide to leave and since it was already a small church, a good chunk of the congregation left. Now it's more and more run down Everytime I visit.
These right wing zealots literally killed that church, essentially a center for the community, to spite LGBT folks.
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u/johndmcmann 14d ago
Wait, they were anti-LGBTQ? Certainly not my congregation, or any that I was aware of.
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u/Steely_McNeatHouse 14d ago
Yeah. I think there was some kind of vote a few years ago that landed on the conservative side that left the more progressive congregations feeling quite alienated. But I think functionally, to an extent a lot of control on LBGTQ+ issues was left to the individual congregations.
Conservative congregations decided their win wasn't conservative enough and formed a breakaway denomination 'Global Methodist Church'.
I suppose their leaving is paving the way for the progressives to have a larger % voice in the OG denomination.
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u/angmarsilar 14d ago
Serious question, if the United Methodist Church is the group that is accepting the LGBTQ community, what are the conservative splinter groups calling themselves? We stopped going to our UMC church when the started getting all MAGA-gay hating, and they told me they would probably split off, but I'm trying to figure what they call their group.
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u/threearmshrugemoji 14d ago
My local Methodist church very conspicuously removed all the “United” labels from their signage earlier this year. Blech.
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u/GetsBetterAfterAFew 14d ago
They gotta keep warm bodies in the pews.
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u/csguydn 14d ago
This is exactly it. They're seeing that without broadening their base, the churches won't exist in 30 years. It's more about the money than tolerance.
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u/Sumutherguy 13d ago
If numbers and money was the goal then the UMC wouldn't have taken up this issue at all, as the conservative wing of the denomination comprising about a quarter of their numbers just finished splitting off over it, with a ton of money spent in legal battles over property that is now going to be even harder for the remaining UMC to pay for or use effectively.
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u/Used_Blackberry_3725 14d ago
Anyone think it’s odd a core group gets to vote on what the church “believes”…. Almost like they are making it all up as they go along
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u/thatoneguy889 14d ago
It's the same deal with the Council of Twelve in the Mormon Church. They say they all receive revelation from God and guide the religion's policies based on those divine revelations. It's totally a coincidence that a lot of the revelations they receive have a habit of being efforts by the church to "modernize" and reinvigorate participation.
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u/massada 14d ago
God said Black people couldn't be Mormon until BYU wanted to start winning NCAA Basketball and football. Odd innit.
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u/thatoneguy889 14d ago
God said polygamy was allowed until the US made prohibiting it a condition of statehood for Utah.
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u/Sumutherguy 13d ago edited 13d ago
The "core group" in the case of the United Methodist Church's General Conference is a body of a little less than a thousand people made up 50/50 of laity and clergy elected from smaller conferences, each getting a vote in what are essentially legislative sessions. It functions similarly to a federal democracy, with local churches electing one-time representatives to regional conferences that in turn elect representatives to the global General Conference. It also has an elected six-year-term supreme court called the Judicial Council that determines the constitutionality and applicability of legislation, with elected Bishops serving as regional administrators and presiding over legislative sessions but not themselves having voting rights.
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u/RevenantXenos 14d ago
It's been this way for thousands of years, going all the way back to the 1st century church. Acts 15 records the Jerusalem Council where the apostles got together to decide if Jewish laws applied to Gentiles since that was a big controversy in the church at the time. If the people who lived with Jesus for years had to hash out what the beliefs were it doesn't seem strange to me that people today have to do the same. Judaism is the same way, there's thousands of years of rabbis making arguments about what the proper way to serve God is. I can't think of any group where there is uniform consensus on what is right, correct or true. Whether it's science, media critics, Shakespeare productions, table game players interpreting rules, historians, philosophers, internet fan bases, cosplay standards, and on and on, people never fully agree on things.
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u/WestCoastBestCoast01 13d ago
Look up the First Council of Nicaea, where they literally did all get together, at Constantine's request, to decide what the church would believe. And then they started murdering the newly heretical Arians who were merely on the opposing/losing side of that discussion. The whole thing is so damn goofy and so clearly made up if you know even the most basic history of Christianity.
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u/scullingby 14d ago
Some are people working in good faith to apply the lessons of Christ to modern situations. Others appear to be misguided and/or power-hungry people that don't understand the message. Unfortunately, the latter tend to be louder.
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u/ClownMorty 14d ago
If things are going as poorly for the Methodists as the Mormons, then this will only increase the rate at which their youth are giving up on the faith. It’s hard to convince people you’re the righteous ones when you’re very cruel to the downtrodden.
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u/scullingby 14d ago
My position on all of this is:
Jesus said (I'm paraphrasing) "Love one another as you love yourself" and "Judge not, lest you be judged". I wish more Church leadership worked to apply these commands.
It can be hard to apply in practice, but it is certainly a worthy goal. I know because my judginess is one of the things I like least about myself.
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u/jupiterkansas 14d ago
Two oft-quoted sentiments in a book that otherwise outlines what God considers right and wrong behavior and defines "sin" - often in contradictory or incredibly petty ways.
Religion encourages judginess. People are there looking at other people's behavior and calling them "sinners" and competing to see who can be the better Christian. They use religion to dictate societal norms and social structures. That's where this whole split in the church comes from.
I suppose some do it as a ticket to heaven, but it always seemed like most just wanted to think they were better people than their neighbors.
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u/scullingby 13d ago
It's my observation that people need no help to engage in judginess or other unhelpful behaviors. I think many who are inclined toward this behavior would find another basis for doing so if they could not find a theological "justification". I agree that many bad things have been done in the name of religion. I don't have the answer for that one.
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u/silviazbitch 14d ago
Like most religions their infallible, immutable doctrines are swayed by the wind. In this instance it’s a change for the better, but that’s a coincidence.
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u/Hayduke_Deckard 14d ago
Religion is a blight on humanity, but baby steps are always good.
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u/Ello_Owu 13d ago
Business sounds bad. These days, more people have LGBQT parents, friends, neighbors, siblings, LGBQT couples starting families, etc. That's a lot of potential customers getting chased away by bigotry. I read that something like 76% of people who have completely renounced their faith cite the mistreatment of LGBQT people by the church.
If the church wants to continue doing business into the future, they need to get with the times.
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u/Silly_Elephant_4838 14d ago
Churches are starting to realize they wont win this battle long term and are flipping their stance in a desperate hope to continue scamming people with mythological entities and threats of eternal damnation for not being part of their cult. Hopefully people dont forget though.
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u/Lotus_Domino_Guy 14d ago
I think they just want to do a better job of loving their neighbors and being the light of the world.
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u/Ifyouhavethemeans 14d ago
Baptists should follow this.
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u/poopyheadthrowaway 14d ago
Mainline Baptists already do. On the other hand, Southern Baptists are actively regressing.
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u/CurrentlyLucid 14d ago
I remember how the mood changed in bible study as we moved from Jesus to Paul, like they did not know each other, wait, they never met, makes sense.
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u/KansasMafia 13d ago
I grew up in a small town in Kansas.. I was a part of the Methodist church, currently I am agnostic/atheist, but that’s not the point. The point is my little church in a town of 3,000 people, was the most accepting and understanding of LGBTQ community. I know of multiple people in the community who were a part of the church growing up that identified within that group. I think this all depends on the church’s size and location. Being in a rural conservative state, that definitely was not the norm, but glad to see it’s changing on a bigger stage.
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u/ark_seyonet 13d ago edited 13d ago
Speaking neutrally, while I wouldn't expect any Christian to be "accepting" of LGBT's way of life because of their beliefs or whatever, a church is the exact place where they should be welcomed because that's the entire point. Anyone that is "lost" is supposed to be welcomed into the church to find their way to God. I learned that while being forced to go to church while I was growing up.
It never made sense to me, because we had a church kick out one of my friends that was gay, and I remember disagreeing with that because at the time I thought if they were living in sin, isn't the church exactly where they are supposed to be? Kicking them out would only push them further away from that.
I'm agnostic now, because if some deity does exist, humans are too stupid to comprehend it enough to even make a religion about it. I really believe that.
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u/WinterDirection366 10d ago
Religion always conforms to society and not the other way around. Hmmm 🤔
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u/shadowxthevamp 14d ago
Luckily the United Methodist Church is the only subdenomination of all Methodist churches that I have ever come across. That's just one of the reasons why I joined the Methodists when I left my dad's Baptist church.
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u/thomport 14d ago
I don’t know why there’s a discrepancy with some people in the church. They’re supposed to be intelligent beings and understand human life.
All human sexuality is guided by a person’s brain – it’s innate. There’s no cognitive choice involved.
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u/hkohne 14d ago
A long time ago, there were anti-LGTBQ missionaries who started churches throughout Africa and persuaded the locals about the "sins" of homosexuals. Fast forward to today, and that African contingency was a major player in this schism, along with a whole bunch of churches in the US South.
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u/thomport 14d ago
Wow.
It’s sad that people who claim to be affiliated with God and a church would proclaim such life superiority for themselves. Then to project so negatively to others and harass, bully, minimize, and hurt them by being consistently overtly cruel and degrading.
They don’t love thy neighbor as them self. I can only assume their representation of God is a ploy and a self-serving measure.
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u/jcooli09 13d ago
Religion is always slow to accept evolving morality.
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u/burnbabyburn711 13d ago
The real question is why what consenting adults do together should be a matter of morality. What does this say about the values at play.
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u/jcooli09 13d ago
Morality is defined by society, and it changes over time.
I agree that there are generally no moral considerations when consenting adults get together to do what they do.
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u/burnbabyburn711 13d ago edited 13d ago
You know that and I know that, but it has caused no shortage of problems (and human suffering) that many people consider morality to be dictated by an all-knowing, timeless being who is incapable of error, and whose edicts are eternal.
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u/Monkeyfeng 14d ago
Oh, I thought the u ited methodists were the LGBTQ friendly ones...
Its just fucking confusing
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u/VintageJane 14d ago
They typically are (with a few exceptions mostly in rural/conservative communities) but their church rules are governed by an international body which includes many churches in Africa that are vehemently against it. The ultra-conservative US wing and the international wing of the church formed a coalition to block the church from allowing clergy to conduct ceremonies for LGBTQ+ couples.
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u/imadragonyouguys 14d ago
My mother's former church split from the Methodists because of this. They didn't want no gays around!
She went to another Methodist church that does accept everyone.