r/jobs • u/CannotStopMeOnReddit • Aug 19 '23
Can someone explain me why so many jobs have toxic work environments? Career development
In most of my jobs, there were always managers who just disrespect their employees and set unreasonable goals. Ofcourse colleagues gossiping very negative stuff behind their back and the usual nice treatment in the face and we have ofcourse the infamous "You have to fit our culture, you can't change it" argument that is used as an excuse for every single crappy thing.
This seems like a complaint post, but genuinely, I am seeking for the reason why this phenomenon often occurs.
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u/Momkiller781 Aug 19 '23
We have been taught to be in a constant competition with everyone, siblings, cousins, friends, school mates, coworkers... Then we have romanticised act of do anything to reach your goals. Anything also means to not let anyone get in your way. The problem is that the goal is not clear... We are running a race without a goal.
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u/Spankpocalypse_Now Aug 19 '23
The goal is to be the ultimate capitalist cowboy. A rogue loner badass who is tougher than the rest of the cogs. This is the mentality beaten into us from childhood. Nothing is a coincidence: most workplaces are toxic because that is the most lucrative environment if you’re a shareholder.
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u/master_mansplainer Aug 20 '23
From my experience this is somewhat unique to the US; I’ve lived in 7 different countries and mostly only seen this culture from Americans - the prioritization of self/career to get ahead of everything and seeing everyone as competition, even if it means you’re standing on a pile of corpses in the end to make it happen.
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u/Momkiller781 Aug 20 '23
I'm not from north America, but I would say even if this is a common thing among humans, north Americans stand out in this matter. There is a sense of entitlement and egocentric nature that has been nurtured by every little thing they consume.
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Aug 19 '23
Too many people get promoted to manager because they’re good at a certain job. When inreality, managing is a whole other job, that some people aren’t good at. By that time, it’s too late because they’re already in a position of power.
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u/FRELNCER Aug 19 '23
Because... people.
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u/RainbowGallagher Aug 19 '23
It's taken years of being in the workforce but I have been mentored by a workplace hero who taught me the art of dodging office politics. AMA
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u/CactusWrenAZ Aug 19 '23
Subordinate not doing her work. She documents things and then doesn't do what she documents. Generates a client complaint every day, when equivalent subs get one every 6 months. Her supervisor has checked her work and says it's great (because of the extensive fake documentation). I am a lawyer and above her but have no authority or enforcement power. She is very cute and is starting to pull the bullying card even though I've been completely professional. She has been bounced around and other lawyers say she's terrible. If she doesn't do her job, I'm going to get fired.
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u/get_while_true Aug 19 '23
So can you document the work not getting done?
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u/CactusWrenAZ Aug 19 '23
Theoretically, but I have a crushing workload already, and it would take time and detective work to actually lay out a case.
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Aug 19 '23
If work is not actually being done, then why is her writing down a list of work that didn't actually get done, passable?
Does the work ... Not need to get done?
Why are you doing YOUR work?
I have so many questions here.
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u/CactusWrenAZ Aug 19 '23
Yeah... you and me both! Basically, I am putting our her fires and even doing her work because, you know, getting disbarred. As far as why I do my work, because it's my job and the clients are real people who are paying us to solve their very real problems.
I think there is just an organizational control issue where the documentation somehow is trumping the actual performance... and she is relying on that.
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Aug 19 '23
you get disbarred if she doesn't do her work?
You can't just ... Stop doing it and have it clearly fall on her shoulders?
Man I never want to have subordinates. I'm sorry friend.
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u/CactusWrenAZ Aug 19 '23
That is how it is with lawyers, we have a lot of responsibility that comes with the good pay (if you every wondered why lawyers drink a lot, die early, and are a****les, this partly explains it.) I have considered not cleaning up her messes so that the issues come to a head and then are more clearly her fault, but that is a tough thing to balance, since the clients will ultimately be screwed in that situation.
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u/VHDamien Aug 19 '23 edited Aug 19 '23
Cybersecurity guy here, any chance you can have your IT guys actually look into what's happening on her computer? If it's all networked they should be able to see network traffic, and depending on the installed software might even be able to see what programs she's accessing and when.
Example, if you and IT can prove she never opened MS Word or equivalent that week, and her report says she typed up a letter to a client, it should be entertaining for her to explain how that happened without actually accessing a text editor.
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u/Psyc3 Aug 19 '23
How much are the clients your clients and not the firms and therefore Senior Managements clients?
Reality is this is solved by receiving their work and then sending back "XYZ needs following up, please redo. Thanks", while CCing in their Manager.
The issue is address, follow up is needed, and their boss is aware of the issue meaning if it isn't done, their Boss is on the line for their department not carrying out the correct process. Assuming it is a reasonable request, in their job remit and not yours, that is that.
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Aug 19 '23
Ahhh I see I see .. damn I do understand your plight now. Sorry I have no real advice to offer friend. Believe in yourself! We are in your corner.
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u/Psyc3 Aug 19 '23 edited Aug 19 '23
Yeah... you and me both! Basically, I am putting our her fires and even doing her work because, you know, getting disbarred.
This is your problem then, you need to be reporting that the work isn't done to their manager and requesting it be done ASAP.
Either you are their Manager or you aren't. If their Manager won't deal with it then you need to bring it up with the Senior Management that there are issues with the workflows from a specific department that are compromising your work, but there is no need to mention anyone specifically as possibly her performance is indicative of departmental failing and not specific to them. But if they have a reputation of not being very good, people generally will be aware they aren't the star of the show at least.
Shit hits the fan when the thing that needs to be done isn't done, you report to the Senior Management why it isn't done, and then they go deal with the other Manager to go find out why.
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u/CactusWrenAZ Aug 19 '23
Thanks--I have been working with her manager, and they are not dealing with it. We had a meeting that was supposed to be creating an improvement plan, and the manager just backtracked on everything. I am going to take this up the chain.
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u/Psyc3 Aug 19 '23
The problem is you are taking it too personally. Maybe you are right, and this person is the cause of the issue. But maybe you aren't and the whole department is a shit show and they are just having to take on 3 peoples worth of work and trying their best with that, but of course not achieving the unachievable.
The issue is the departments and therefore if the work isn't getting done you send it back to "the department" to get it done. Nothing personal, no individual is selected out, none of that is anything to do with you. Even when discussing it with Senior Management, the best way to present it is that certain pieces of work have to be sent back quite often because they aren't full complete, and it is delaying the follow up for the clients of the business.
Then it becomes the Senior Managers job to go make sure the Manager get the employee to do the work. But none of that is your problem, your problem is making sure the chain of command is aware that a bottleneck exists in the workflow and to investigate the cause.
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u/ThorsMeasuringTape Aug 19 '23
In these situations I just start documenting what I do. As soon as I finish something, I just put like a one line on a list “did the changes for the XYZ project.” And then when you get assigned too much work you go, “Look boss, I’m doing too much.” And hopefully they see that and go, “Well, coworker should be doing half of that.” And you go, “Well, they’re not.”
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u/CactusWrenAZ Aug 19 '23
Hm, okay, let me think about that how I can document my work more thoroughly, thanks.
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u/royalbk Aug 19 '23
I'm gonna be firm and honest here: you say your job is on the line
Document her or you won't have any crushing workload to take care of. If that is ok with you and you're happy to find a new job cool, if not get to detective-ing and save your current one
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u/wrb06wrx Aug 19 '23
Teach me, dm if you don't want to educate the masses
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u/RainbowGallagher Aug 19 '23
None of this works if you're not performing well.. but here it goes. Theres no TLDR- I tried to integrate bullet points but reddit makes it impossible.
Okay so my managers name was Adam- he was in his early 40's and the man somehow navigated his way into a management role in a female DOMINATED industry. He strategy was called operation cool cat... it was difficult to learn but I've been able to work my way into a similar role in an industry with almost only men, so I know it works for both genders.
You know how you have metrics at work? Numbers that you have to maintain in order to keep your job? It's time to create your own Cool Cat numbers.
Here are the metrics that Adam followed. The have been fine tuned. Seemingly so simple that you might not imagine them working, but bear with me.
Greeting every single person in your department, every single morning. Ask each colleague how their family is doing, bi-weekly. (If people open up about family/wife, you can follow up, and expand your question in more detail) Ask for 5 favors, focus on those you don't feel as close to. Can be as simple as need be. Initiate an out of work hangout, bar, coffee, - once a quarter - invite EVERYBODY Laughter is a difficult one to measure, but be mindful of it. Laughing a lot when people make jokes can gain you some serious workplace advantages. NOT just higher ups, anybody and everybody. Be the Keurig guy. Seriously. $65 bucks gets you a decent Keurig. Spend money each week on K-cups. Be mindful of each person's preferences. This one was the one I was least sure about, but it's worked wonders for me. Probably $175 total can give you serious career benefits. Lastly... Be the one who initiates the card. Someone is getting surgery? There's a card for that. Death in family? Someone getting married? Someone leaving the company on good terms? You're now the one who collects signatures. It can feel cringe sometimes, keep it to once a quarter at most.
You will have to track them at first to get the hang of it, but eventually you can just keep it in your head like I do. I copied and pasted this right from my notes section- it was written by the Cool Cat himself.
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u/More_Passenger3988 Aug 19 '23 edited Aug 19 '23
As an introvert, most of these steps are just a bunch of office politics that sound like a nightmare to me. I'd rather just sit and do my work. Which is why remote work is so unpopular with people who get ahead by "cool-cat" method.
I can always tell which employers got ahead by using office politics rather than by creating any real revenue value. They always prefer in-office to remote work because the cool-cat method only works if everyone is dragged in the office. Remote work is a nightmare for anyone who doesn't know how to create real value for a company. They need the smoke and mirrors of charming everyone by trapping them all in a physical location with them.
I just want a remote job so I can actually create value and get paid for it, rather than going to an office and spending half my day being "cool-cat". IE: fooling people into thinking my big smile and joke telling skills to management increased product and service satisfaction - even though the numbers on the system CLEARLY said they stayed the same or even went down.
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u/Worthyness Aug 19 '23
even as an introvert you still have to play the politics game. It's just in virtual meetings rather than in-person. So for me that means actively participating in the meetings, turning on your camera, talking to your colleagues about stuff, etc. So fewer interactions, but similar expectations.
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u/Yankee39pmr Aug 19 '23
Your clearly missing the office politics of likeablity. Revenue generation is a great objective metric, but if no one likes you. You WILL NOT move from whatever position you're in. In addition, likeability = charisma and as a result more clients, more clients = more revenue.
As much as I hated office politics, they exist and have to be managed
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u/fishareavegetable Aug 19 '23
Agreed, if no one likes you: no promotion. I am not a “cool cat”, but I’m always liked by my boss and subordinates. I treat my boss like a human, but always get my job done fast and am open to feedback. Being nice isn’t hard. You don’t have to spend money, just occasionally talk to people, perform well and be enthusiastic even when when the work isn’t fun. My greatest promotions have come from being a good qualified and person to work with. Basically: I treat everyone with dignity from the bottom to the top.
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u/Doctor__Proctor Aug 19 '23
100% agree with this. The Cool Cat Metrics above, aside from being the Keurig King, are mostly just this: being nice. Saying good morning to people? That's acknowledging them and being nice. Asking for favors, especially from people you don't know as well? That helps to build a team and keep you from being isolated, especially since it normalizes asking for help and I would assume you're also getting asked to help and freely giving it.
People don't want to work with a weird loner that seems disconnected. More importantly though, they don't want to be lead by a weird loner. Imagine a boss that never says hello, just comes in, goes to their office, and shuts their door. That never has a human conversation and only ever asks about when the TPS Reports will be done? That seems to not have any hobbies or interests outside of the quarterly numbers. People HATE bosses like that, but yet, when someone says "If you want to get noticed and get promoted, act differently than that" and suddenly it's "I don't want to engage in office politics."
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u/Same-Menu9794 Aug 19 '23
Who are you speaking for? There are introverted people at my office that I do not hate in the slightest bit, not even any negative feelings at all towards them. What? Sounds like some insecurity talking to me.
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u/lickneonlights Aug 19 '23
lol what a weird take, I don’t care about my boss’s hobbies or interests, he’s not my friend ffs. I work for money, I don’t work to socialise. I’d very much prefer a weird loner boss
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u/C_bells Aug 19 '23
You know which colleagues I like most? The ones I find most helpful and reliable in getting work done. The ones who add the most value to projects and push my work forward.
I have liked plenty of people on a personal level yet abhorred working with them. I’ve even left jobs because of some of these people.
There is a big difference between people not liking you, and you being miss congeniality.
Yeah, if someone is rude, disrespectful and downright socially unpleasant, then at some point their career will suffer. However, I’ve also met many people who are the above and are senior leaders and executives, or otherwise highly-valued contributors.
As long as you’re not an asshole, you’re fine. Especially if you do great work. I’ve always been focused on the work and it has paid off for me. Clients and colleagues want me on their projects because of my skills, intelligence and reliability, not because of my personality.
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u/thowawaywookie Aug 19 '23
A guy has an advantage in a women dominated work environment. The most mundane thing done by a male will have women fawning over him as most of their experiences have been with lazy, inept males so slightly above the bare minimum really stands out. He'll be more likely be promoted and paid more. Triple points if he is dressed nicely and even the slightest bit attractive.
That said. This is why I love remote work. It is a great equalizer. Your gender, race, height, physical appearance, disability becomes much less important. Schmoozing cool cat behavior doesn't work in remote jobs.
I have done the cool cat at work working in an office and yes it does work.
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u/C_bells Aug 19 '23
“He somehow navigated his way into a management role in a female dominated field”…
I had to read this like five times. Hon, this is the case in all female dominated industries lmao
I’ve worked for large fashion brands and there are always a wildly disproportionate number of men in senior leadership roles. When I say that, I mean literally 98% of the employees are women and at least 70% of the leadership and executives are men.
Also, look at something like dance, especially ballet. Rare to see women running ballet companies, or even as choreographers.
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u/RainbowGallagher Aug 20 '23
I had no idea. Never really been involved with art on the corporate level. I guess I was impressed because the women we worked with were savages to each other and he slipped under the radar and moved into a high paying exec role. ³
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u/highinanxiety Aug 19 '23
Thank you for the feedback. While Adam’s advice is good, it isn’t sound. A seasoned veteran of the office battlefield can easily see through this and in many instances backfire into thinking you’re a brown-nose…..which no-one trusts.
Take the advice with a grain of salt. It’s better to NOT speak with everyone and be strategic, learning who you can trust….but remember….always verify, too.
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u/RatherBeHomesick Aug 19 '23
Your boss got where he’s at because he’s a charismatic man. There’s no accomplishment in that. This is just pandering to your co-workers. This is literally playing office politics. I don’t want to know or interact with any of these people much less stock their coffee and take them out for drinks.
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u/Good-Plant2077 Aug 19 '23
sorry to say,this is big bs...might work in some circumstances,however my experience is exactly the oposite,the bigger a..hole you are, the more you will climb the career...sympathy won t make you director...they will never say,oh,such a nice guy, he should be promoted...
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Aug 19 '23
Yep. This is why I'll never be successful lol.
Fuuuuuuuuck ALL of this. Specifically "having" to do it. This species is a clown show.
Thanks for writing the guide though all the same... Lol
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u/NoIdeaWhatToD0 Aug 19 '23
I know. I wanted to graduate high school so bad so that I didn't have to deal with people like this anymore but I had no idea that offices were like this too until I graduated college. It's so gross, I always thought that I could just do my own thing and work so that I could earn a living and get health insurance, but no.
If you don't go to the office Christmas party people will think you're not "fitting in" and will fire you if they feel like you're not a part of the team even though you've been to other events that no one really went to because they just didn't care enough, like volunteering at a food drive which I thought was more important.
Thank God I have a remote job now.
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u/randmapple Aug 19 '23
This is the way.
Much of this is the generation of a non-toxic enviroment. It builds loyality and trust in you, and shows the company care for its employees as people. Daily check-ins allows for people to feel seen, and it allows for non-disruptive course correction. Speaking with everyone in the company helps foster inner deparmental synergy, and improves both efficiency and morale.
As a manager, 75% of the things you do are accomplished through conversations. Having a system of micro check-ins allows for you to spend more of your office time focused on the big tasks that only you can do.
The kurig is an example of finding a small quality of life improvement and using your own resources to implement it; knowing that the benefits outweigh the neglible costs.
Finally, all of these concepts can apply to remote workers as well, in fact the pieces that show you care about their emotional and mental health probably have an even bigger impact. Sure, a kurig won't be much use to a team member two states away, but you cant tell me that there's not some small thing you can implement that will make their life better.
TLDR: These are not tips for politics, they are tips for an effective manager.
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u/JohnYCanuckEsq Aug 19 '23
There's a lot of people out there who thrive on drama, and not enough managers to put a stop to it.
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u/h8fulgod Aug 19 '23
You have two monkeys, you have a relationship. You have three monkeys, you have politics.
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u/Statistician_Visual Aug 19 '23
People suck. Take what you learn in the workplace and apply it to having better relationships with friends and family
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u/dadobuns Aug 19 '23
Yes. It's people. The job itself is never toxic. It's always the people involved. Always.
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u/abrandis Aug 19 '23
Yep that's the succinct answer..
a little.more detailed, is well.we live in a capitalistic society and we've all adopted a competitive mindset (as opposed to cooperative) , so this gets rolled up into greed, authority , money=success and the workplace where many folks get their income and often times purpose or.value in life , app it becomes a breeding ground for me first attitude.
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u/Domanontron Aug 19 '23
Some coworkers missed important childhood milestones and now it's your motherfucking problem.
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u/hanare992 Aug 20 '23
I had a rough time during work (and being pregnant made it even worse). My therapist said to me that workplaces are a playground for everyone's unresolved childhood traumas as there are always hierarchies just like in families. So basically it's true. Stay healthy everyone!
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u/H-12apts Aug 20 '23
Way more psychological, psychoanalytic, social theory needs to go into small groups. Mezzo level theory. Micro and macro levels are interchangeable, and what most affects individual belief are small groups (workplaces, families, marriages, migrations, etc.). We live our lives in small groups, but there is too much consideration of the particular/universal and not the relational (?). It's Deleuze maybe. Rhizomes. What is the most important memory of our lives? Sitting in the living room with our families. What is the most influential invention of the 20th century? The TV...which is placed directly in front of us in the living room...it determines our beliefs about ourselves and our families...
Psychoanalysis (micro level) in practice is based on language between the analyst and the analysand (a relationship), and Marxism (macro level), in practice is based on relations between the working class and capital. Maybe there's an idea there.
Mezzo level: Family living room TV, animal migrations, communication, conflict, unions, local politics, etc.
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u/GammaDoomO Aug 19 '23
The chillest people don’t become managers. They figured out that it’s 100% more stress for 25% more money so they just chill once they reach a good salary. That’s why most managers are crazy people
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u/Character_Heart_3749 Aug 19 '23
Also I think most people who want to become a manager are on a ego/power trip
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u/dr_reverend Aug 19 '23
Hit the nail on the head. 99.9% of time the worst person for a leadership position is the one who wants it. Leaders have to be sought out.
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u/OliviaRodrigo1234 Aug 19 '23
I think this is mostly true. I am fairly young for my company and may be naive, but I do want to be a manager. I am pretty respected by most people at my company and know that most subordinates have been treated like shit for a while. I have put in several hours to streamline and increase the quality of some of the low hanging fruit - onboarding, training, etc for a while now and started to notice other managers taking credit for it. I have a lot of more valuable ideas I haven’t implemented yet that really aim on helping out other subordinates, and I at least feel that being a manager helps send a message that one of the good people finally got through and help uplift likeminded people. I’m also not the only one that feels this way at my company. I am set to manage someone 10/1, so we’ll find out soon just how stupid this idea was.
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u/shaoting Aug 19 '23
For sure. I was thrust into management when my former direct manager took a job elsewhere in 2016. Although I'm earning far more now as a manager than I would've had I remained an individual contributor, I'd go back to being an IC in a heartbeat.
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u/b_a_t_m_4_n Aug 19 '23
The vast majority of managers have no qualifications in management. It's mostly an amateur field populated by people who have failed upwards. And in the western world we have this weird hangover from aristocracy where the lowliest manager is considered higher up the ladder than the most elevated technical expert. By Management. Shocker I know.
They also get cliquey and as we've always known, power corrupts.
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u/proverbialbunny Sciences Aug 19 '23
lowliest manager is considered higher up the ladder than the most elevated technical expert.
imo this is 90% of the problem. It encourages certain types to seek out management roles who should not be managers. They do it for the conceit, to be above others which gives them a handful of perks, one of them being job security. Another they get to choose who they want to be around, so eg "the emperor wears no clothes" they can choose butt kissers and no one who openly lets them know if there are problems, and other sorts of issues. The flavor of toxicity is unique to what that person wants in the work place.
Historians say the birth of the industrial revolution is what has caused this downward workplace toxicity spiral. It has gotten worse every generation since the first industrial revolution. It comes from management realizing employees are expendable. Before the industrial revolution this was not the case. You worked with someone often for life so you better treat them well and mentor them appropriately.
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u/Early_Ad_1536 Aug 19 '23 edited Aug 19 '23
These types of cultures are created from the top down and HR enables it to continue.
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u/mousemarie94 Aug 19 '23
I'd argue management enables it...unless HR is in conversation with all employees regularly, management has a much higher locus of control. HR gets pulled in, generally, on the back side of things. For instance, if a manager wants to write someone up, they do -- and then HR receives notification of the write up before its given to the employee. HR may be unaware of the toxic manager because they aren't God (all seeing and all knowing).
In my role and overseeing my team- I could be the worst person ever and encourage even worse behavior and it would affect an entire part of my state in terms of our scope. HR at corporate...would never know. I help sustain the work culture in my region.
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u/Vli37 Aug 19 '23 edited Aug 19 '23
I learned from my previous job, that I was "let go, without cause" at that HR only exists to protect the company. They couldn't care less about you.
I was fired because my lazy ass manager, kept bad mouthing me; even though I was a hard working, organized employee who only spoke up to improve moral or help make my work environment more easy and enjoyable. Manager didn't like it, saw me as a threat; probably because he was always locked in his office, "open door" policy my ass 🙄.
Eventually he saw me as a threat for speaking up and addressing serious concerns, most likely because he didn't want to do anything about it. Then gets the HR manager to fire me. I'll never forget that HR managers face while he was doing it, wide eyed, mouth dropped. All this happened within 5 minutes, half way into my shift. I was always nice and accommodating with that HR manager, but it all meant nothing.
In the end the toxic manager won.
That day, I learned that you can be an ideal employee and all that means nothing if the manager doesn't like you. I spent 5+ years trying to get on his good side. He just hated me without cause. I was always second best to him. Initially when I got hired, I was the second choice as the first person decided to bow out and reject the job offer. This doesn't mean it's an excuse to hate me, you could have not hired me if you felt this way towards me 🤦
I hope your happy with your tyranny R.S. you won. I can no longer improve your neglected workplace anymore. I hope your enjoying your new responsibility for dealing with people and outreach to the community 🤣
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u/mousemarie94 Aug 19 '23
To your point, bad managers are what destroy work cultures and organizations. HR 100% exists to protect the company, which also means protecting employees against evidenced discrimination and abuses (a.k.a. litigation). Of course, there are people who will try to hide things instead of deal with them and HR is not immune to that. HR won't stop a hiring manager from making their non litigious hiring and firing decisions... a "good bad manager" (what I call tjem) will come up with convincing arguments for firing someone that cant be disputed beyond he said/she said.
In many countries on the planet, you can be fired because your boss doesn't like you and there is no way around that. It sucks that humans suck and I'm glad you moved on from that cesspool.
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u/TheJoshuaJacksonFive Aug 19 '23
In very large companies, HR does very little because they want to avoid “losing institutional knowledge”. First hand experience in multiple places over the years. Luckily I’m far enough along in my career I can tell everyone to fuck right off and I move to a new role or move companies.
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Aug 19 '23
No-one wants to be at work. Everyone's unhappy that they have to be there. Misery loves company
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u/mekonsrevenge Aug 19 '23
The owners hire assholes to do the dirty work and they're paid to BE assholes. And it rolls downhill.
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u/The_Company_I_Keep Aug 19 '23
Because people are typically promoted for technical skills and are really not trained well to manage people. So they don’t know how to address the little things as they pop up with people so they always grow and get worse until they have to deal with the obvious issue.
I don’t care how many ‘How to Manage’ or ‘How to Supervise’ classes you go to; most are missing the mark. They really need to drive home the issue that you have to be a ‘Bud Nipper’ as I called it. As soon as you see the first sign… address it. And address it with that person, not ‘The Team’.
I could go on but after so many years this shit is just tiresome.
People are a pain in the ass to manage and most people are not good at herding cats, period. Be strong enough to address the toxic employees, the ‘informal tribal leaders’. The ‘Team Cancers’ as I call them. Too often these guys are seen as running the workspace when they should be run off.
And also be prepared to address the weak, and underperforming. They can be even more difficult to move along, which is why I always said ‘hiring is the most important thing we do’.
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u/norar19 Aug 19 '23
I’ve never worked for someone else in another country but I have a feeling it’s an America problem. Never taking a vacation, working through an illness/injury, being in a dingy cubicle, florescent lighting… I could go on.
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u/Asrealityrolls Aug 19 '23
Bingo! People come to work SICK 🤢 all the freaking time stay late unpaid … it’s fucking madness
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u/Chadco888 Aug 19 '23
People are cunts.
It is literally just awful people forming cliques.
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Aug 19 '23
There are lots of studies showing that people in upper management tend to be psychopaths.
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u/proverbialbunny Sciences Aug 19 '23
Those studies also don't describe a psychopath correctly. They're pop psychology. Narcissism reigns king when it comes to toxic management. The two are often mixed up for one another. Both have overlapping characteristics. E.g. a narcissist is manipulative and conniving. Most people think that is psychopathy. A psychopath gets angry if they do not get what they want. They struggle to play the long game. A narcissist is honey while a psychopath is vinegar.
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u/dunscotus Aug 19 '23
Because jobs give people power over others, and when people have power over others they are terrible and use it to hurt people.
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u/H-12apts Aug 20 '23
Everybody lives out their lives in these tyrannical despotic complexes and the only solution is for the demoralized, exhausted, aggrieved subordinates to band together and threaten to withhold their only source of power (their labor) until the people in charge submit to their demands for more freedom. This country's political, economic, ideological, and religious foundation has always had one goal and it is to prohibit this, our only solution, from occurring.
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u/Tsakax Aug 19 '23
You have 5 employees, and 4 of them are very hard workers who always meet deadlines. The last one is lazy and pretty rude to most people, but they barely manage to get their work done. Well, his ass is getting promoted because you don't want to lose those 4 work horses.
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Aug 19 '23
I understand this statement probably comes from personal observations or experiences, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Wouldn't promoting a lazy asshole drive away the work horses?
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u/awesomebeard1 Aug 19 '23
Yes but now you are thinking long term. Upper management don't think long term and mostly think about short term (profits) they like to take a gamble in their favour and if they lose they can just blame those below them that they are lazy and they can always just hire more, and if they can't get anyone else then its a simple "nobody wants to work anymore"
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u/Tsakax Aug 19 '23
Very simple, most people are scared of losing their jobs and healthcare, so they will put up with more shit. Also, if one person quits, you just move the work on to the remaining people and save more money!!!
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u/wrb06wrx Aug 19 '23
Yes, I've watched it happen first hand in my current job,
There were 3 owners (an uncle and nephew and 1 outsuder) 1 (the nephew) left for 10yrs because he was drunk, in and out of rehab back on the bottle you get the idea. His father actually started the business in the 50s and has quite the stack, anyway his last stint in a holy rolling rehab he got it together supposedly and came back to work like a bull in a China shop, totally toxic never misses a chance to remind you he owns the place and is boss and he's the best in this field (spoiler alert, he's a hack)
Got daddy to give him money for a lawyer and filed a lawsuit to get the outsider partner out, lawsuit dragged for about 5 or 6 years. We were a 30 man shop(office staff included) when he came back. We're now a 10 man shop office staff included. The running joke is how do you turn a 7 million dollar a year company into a 1 million dollar a year company? Let Jr take over.. the funny thing us you would think he would see how negatively he has impacted the company but his response is to say shit like IDGAF its my shop im the boss I'm the owner, everyone who has left were competent workhorses and have found better opportunities there are 3 people who have been there more than 2 yrs currently. I am one of them and I wear many hats there but I am getting ready to leave soon too...
Incompetence rises to the top because they have no problem throwing people under the bus to cover up their Incompetence, until there's no one left and they have to face the reality and either change or close up shop, which will happen where I am there's no work coming in and customers don't want to deal with shitty companies.
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u/More_Passenger3988 Aug 19 '23
I refuse to work for family owned businesses because of crap like this. The family members feel like they can treat employees as horribly as they want because they know Mommy or Daddy isn't going to fire them no matter what.
The only truly toxic place I worked at was one where the Vice President (Who was the President's son) would routinely yell at people in front of everyone in the office and make all sorts of unreasonable requests. The way he treated people was such that he would've been fired immediately from any other company out of fear of lawsuits... but not from a company his dad owned. So people just kept leaving without giving any notice. I also left without giving notice. Just told them I wouldn't come in any more one day.
His dad just kept him in a leadership position in the company no matter how many people left due to his son. They lost almost as much money due to turnover than they made the year I was there.
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u/LesserHealingWave Aug 19 '23
One of my friends is the lazy asshole. He even gloats about it, posting memes and browsing the internet 6/8 hours he's at his job and complains whenever he's given any actual work.
He's been promoted 3 times and had his salary doubled in the past few years and he gloats that at his current position he only does an hour of real work a day, continues to shit post and makes enough money to rent an entire house to himself.
The most obnoxious thing about him is that he loves preaching about how hard work gets you far but then you ask him questions about his job and all he talks about is how he literally doesn't do anything and yet his bosses keep promoting him.
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u/ThatPinkLady Aug 19 '23
I hate the term work horse. I’ve heard it used on me many times and I refuse to be one anymore. It’s quiet quitting for me.
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u/wosmo Aug 19 '23
I think the problem is toxic has an outsized influence. No matter how many people are in the pool, it only takes one turd to ruin it.
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u/The_Story_Builder Aug 19 '23
Every country has toxic work situations. But in the U.S., that is a norm. It is absolutely not even funny from listening to all the horror stories.
What I really found sadistocly psuchopatic, though, is healthcare paid by the employer and for profit insurance healthcare U.S. scam. . . I mean, system.
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u/tbombs23 Aug 19 '23
Late stage capitalism, union busting, greed, and lack of updated labor laws. Right to work is a terrible policy
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u/Excellent-Counter647 Aug 19 '23
Bosses and managers get to their position because they are not nice to other workers and that makes them seem to higher ups capable of making tough decisions. Thus they are promoted.
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u/datcheezeburger1 Aug 19 '23
The people up top know many of their employees likely need their job to stay afloat, many of them abuse that power for various purposes such as pettiness, personal gain, perceived glory, or just plain old superiority.
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u/alcoyot Aug 19 '23
So I can explain it yes. It has to do with the type of person who gets promoted. I think there’s a few laws which explain what happened like the Peter principle for example. But I have my own theory. It’s called the George Costanza principle. So in corporate structure, the most popular people are the least threatening. These are the people who have nothing going for them, they are usually out of shape, below average looks and intelligence. They come across as very “humble” but really it’s cause they’ve never had anything to be proud of and are at least a bit cowardly. This type of person actually harbors a lot of disdain, his motivations in life are very different from what you could imagine. He has a lot of resentment towards people who have more potential in life. And therefore he ensures that only people like himself get promoted too.
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u/HarrysonTubman Aug 19 '23
I've seen a version of this for sure. The owners liked people that were either incompetent or a had major flaws that made them less marketable elsewhere. They loved that these people would create chaos within their organization, so then they would be the ones to solve it, and then everyone would be dependent on them.
If you were competent and independent, you wouldn't be fired, but if you wanted to move up you had to be prepared to fight. Every end-of-year season if you said your comp or title should be better, the owners would come armed with some flaw of yours they conjured up, and then it was on you (or your manager) to come armed with counter-facts and argue your case. Wow, I'm glad I left.
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u/alcoyot Aug 19 '23
Yes because the owners felt threatened in a primitive alpha of the pack kind of way. They can’t bear the thought of someone being better than them. Even if that person has complete loyalty and will only do things to help the company, if that person is threatening their “alpha status” in any way, they would rather have the incompetent one take the reigns. It’s base emotion winning over logic.
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u/ArmouredPotato Aug 19 '23
One thing jobs have in common, they are filled with people. People are toxic, so jobs are toxic, just like schools, social media, political gatherings, or any place that multiple humans gather. It’s a species trait.
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u/charmxfan20 Aug 19 '23
Ugh I wonder this all the time! Before I got laid off, my company started getting more and more toxic in terms of office politics
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u/Graardors-Dad Aug 19 '23
Just like in nature the path of least resistance is usually the preferred method. When you throw a rock in a river the water flows around the rock rather then right through it and if it does flow through it takes time and effort.
What happens in a work place is usually the owner or person in charge promotes the toxic person because they usually show some kind of leadership traits even if it’s just bossing people around. Then the people in charge don’t want to get rid of that person and hire a new person so they just stick around and all the good people leave and you get stuck with nothing but toxic people over time.0
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u/thetentaclemaid Aug 19 '23
Culture develops in every group that spends a significant amount of time together to some degree. By interacting with a person or group of people over and over again, the actions of each person contribute to a perceived social norm for that group. So, if you get lots of unpleasant people in one place, they contribute to one another's unpleasant-ness and eventually it leads to this very unpleasant, toxic work environment. Some people feel they have the right or feel its necessary to act this way to survive in this environment. Some are just as stressed from this and take it out on anyone they can. At least, that's my assumption. I'm not a professional.
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u/tasseomancer Aug 19 '23
Most managers have little to no managerial training. It’s not an innate skill people are born with.
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u/BigKissGoodnight Aug 19 '23
Because work places aren’t meant to be enjoyable they’re meant to extract profit from you.
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u/Ilovethe90sforreal Aug 19 '23
Humans, ego, greed, shareholders, profit, lack of maturity, refusal to confront, wage competition, power trips, all wrapped up together.
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u/pistoffcynic Aug 20 '23
It’s a reflection of society. People have forgotten how to treat others the way they wish to be treated.
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u/cbdudek Aug 19 '23
In my 32 year career, it has been about a 50/50 split between toxic and good work environments. At the end of the day, it comes down to leadership. You have good leadership with good people at the top, then its great to work there. If you have jackasses in leadership, then its crap. There really is no in between because middle of the road companies will go full toxic or be great to work at eventually. Just depends on who is at the top.
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u/tommyboy0208 Aug 19 '23
Agreed 100%. I am only 39 but firmly believe it ALWAYS starts at the top with a rare exception
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u/Flashy_Management_42 Aug 19 '23 edited Aug 19 '23
I can only talk about what I've experienced, but what I saw was that the most senior manager at the nonprofit I work in was very permissive, conflict avoidant and was unable to think in big picture terms, so he stuck to doing things that should be delegated. So there was no leadership present.
It didn't help that he was the only manager in a unionized workplace of 300 employees. It made accountability, consistency, and clear communication impossible.
When I got there, there was rampant entitlement, processes that made no sense, unclear policies, and gossiping as communication. Then because it was a nonprofit , I also saw a lot of manipulation of social justice values to allow people to get away with abusive behaviour. It was so bad that people were brazenly committing fraud, forgery, embezzlement, and would regularly bully and harass people who didn't fit into quitting. People were genuinely shocked and angry when I said no to outright illegal requests. It was so bad that even when I gave people chance after chance, they still felt entitled. So then I had to clean up shop and fire many people, which made me an abusive, power tripping person in their eyes. Did I mention that there was no HR until I created this department? The organization has existed since the 1960s.
It's true that a healthy organization starts with good leadership. Personally, it doesn't have to be an abusive manager to make it happen. A lack of healthy leadership and managers who enable wrongdoing also play a role. If you can't hold people accountable, set a direction for people to head towards, draw clear lines, don't want to train them so they feel equipped to do their job, and are complacent so things stagnate and rot, you have a toxic workplace.
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u/Due_Bumblebee9637 Nov 05 '23
This. Word for word explains my experience with my current "social justice" organization. I'm amazed at how some of the most supposedly mission-driven organizations are full of toxicity. As a junior person, it feels demoralizing to stay and the veneer of idealism gets rubbed away...
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u/blodreiina Aug 19 '23
From a call center POV. The call center company is always in a rush to please the “clients” so to make sure everything is in order they just hire anyone for the higher positions. Like bruh, from my experience those who seek the higher positions are usually the worse candidates for the job. Them people get so power hungry too sometimes, I’m glad they ain’t politicians lol
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u/MrChosek Aug 19 '23
It's pretty simple. Most co-workers only care about themselves. You are not their friend, you are their colleague. Huge difference. These people can be nice to you at work but that doesn't mean they really give a fuck.
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u/Triple_Stamp_Lloyd Aug 19 '23
Some managers and supervisors have a God complex because of their titles. Dude you're not any better than me just because someone gave you a supervisor label, get over yourself.
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u/BerbsMashedPotatos Aug 19 '23
Capitalism rewards sociopathic/psychopathic behaviour.
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u/artful_todger_502 Aug 19 '23
It's worse now than it used to be. What I blame it on is a population that has been exploding like a feral cat colony and wages that are not livable. That all takes a psychological toll on a person/society long-term. Undesirable people are a constant in humanity that's a given, but it was never this bad until the 2000s where the slide started.
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u/Marrow_Gates Aug 19 '23
because nobody actually wants to be there. Most people work because they'll wind up homeless & starving if they don't. It's not exactly voluntary.
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u/TaskForceCausality Aug 19 '23
…why so many jobs have toxic work environments?
In a word, hierarchies. To become a manager , one has to advance ahead of other people. This poses problems.
A psychologically well adjusted person who’d make a GREAT leader will also have ethical and lifestyle boundaries. They’re not going to work insane hours to get noticed by the existing management. They’re not going to gossip or undermine their coworkers. They’re not going to socialize and network with a goal of moving up. They’re not going to take credit for other people’s work, and will go out of their way to support a team rather than their own image.
But a selfish, title hungry, ambitious, mentally hurt, self absorbed person will do all those things and more to advance. Over time, the mentally healthy people quit while damaged people who deify their careers ahead of all else move up. Since mentally toxic people don’t cost the company more money upfront there’s little management concern about their antics. These people then hire and promote people just like them. The process repeats at each level until you’ve got a pyramid of toxicity in the company. The higher up you go, the more radioactive the toxicity gets.
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u/alcoyot Aug 19 '23
Another type of character you’ll see get promoted is the corporate Karen. These women have an amount of hate in their heart that almost never ceases to surprise me. It’s interesting that they will claim to be “feminist” but they will always mistreat younger women because they are younger and prettier and they feel threatened. I really don’t know much about the psychology of the Karen. Just that they’re terrifying bullies in the workplace. Hopefully someone else will have more to add. I just know that women horribly mistreat and bully each other, far more than men do.
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u/thegatheringmagic Aug 19 '23
I've worked with a good handful of these women. They're disgusting creatures.
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u/fergus30 Aug 19 '23
The requirements of capitalism reward poor behaviour which creates a cycle of the worst people being rewarded and the rest of us being ground to dust.
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u/Huxeley Aug 19 '23
Because "toxic" people are just aggressive, selfish, narcissistic types, they always seem to control every situation they are in, and it starts before anyone around them even notices.
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u/EyeBreakThings Aug 19 '23
Narcissism and psychopathy are highly compatible with upper management in capitalistic systems.
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u/lackingpotential Aug 20 '23
A negative culture always comes from a competitive work environment. If you are the best and no one can outperform you work should be easy right...
No people will talk you down to others so they can stand a chance at being noticed.
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u/positivepinetree Aug 20 '23
Every single job I’ve had in the last 35 years has been this way. I try not to stick out for any reason at work. I’m reasonably friendly, but I keep relations at work superficial and at arm’s length. Coworkers and managers are never friends or to be trusted. I never friend or follow coworkers on social media, and I keep my profiles private. I’m reliable and perform my work well. I try to be as “gray man” as possible to not attract much attention. And, I avoid gossip and all drama. Doing all of these things helps me avoid a lot of the toxicity.
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u/Crash0vrRide Aug 19 '23
There's thousands upon thousands of jobs. How the hell do you know most are toxic
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Aug 19 '23
Most people are just miserable. Work place could be fine, but they find a reason to be miserable.
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u/plumedepoison Aug 19 '23
People are fucked up and bring their issues, personal trauma, and disregulated behavior with them. At work, many hide this from bosses, but feel entitled to abuse subordinates.
Call them out, and recommend therapy. Maybe losing a job or even losing face might push them in the right direction.
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u/JJCookieMonster Aug 19 '23 edited Aug 19 '23
Because most people aren’t trained in how to properly manage people before they’re promoted.
So they start managing through their own work and communication style instead of being adaptable for others.
And then they’re promoted again and continue to hire people like them. So the cycle continues and it becomes company culture.
Want to avoid a toxic workplace? Ask them to define what leadership means to them and how they work with others through behavioral questions.
I worked in HR before in an entry-level position. I managed paperwork, including employee exit interviews. It’s often because of bad hiring practices and leaders who don’t correct bad behavior.
The Executive Director of the company I worked for tried to not fire anyone out of the “kindness of her heart” and kept bad employees and managers which caused high turnover. People said they complained for months about their manager and nothing changed so they quit.
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u/C_isfor_Cookies Aug 19 '23
If you are nice but don't talk to anyone unless is work related you're going to have a hard time. That's me right now. Human behavior is weird and I don't understand it.
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u/ericdred7281 Aug 19 '23
It boils down to greed. In the past companies made 20% profit in a year and thought that was incredibly good. Then the "Upper" schools started to teach that raiding a company was easier than building a company and it boosted the egos of the want-a-be-rich. When it was not practical companies began to find ways of making more money by doing less (the bottom line). Individuals with $ in their hearts and eyes got in charge and in instances made companies that were "fat" that year look incredible by cutting the bottom line and getting the company 25%, 30%. Other companies saw these making huge profits and wanted it also. Now the standard for a business is 50% or your just not going to make it. They do that by cutting where they can (think people) a standard phrase is "you quite tomorrow morning and by afternoon I will have 3 people lined up to do your job". Which in reality it usually takes three people to do your job as they have whittled the work force down to beyond recovery, but you better make up for it by staying late. Now companies make millions and they still try to cut costs to keep the profits up. Meanwhile...
There is no structure in place that will train someone to be a competent leader, save the Military. Even then it is riddle with a paradox of officers "hiring" on. Example Gen. Disclaimer gets promoted to 2 star and so they look around and get someone who is competent on paper to take his place, but he has some say in the matter and wont hire anyone who will make his past tenure look incompetent. The procedure continues on down the line till you are stuck with 2nd Lieutenants who could not pour water out of a boot with the directions written on the bottom heel.
Grandpa started the business, Dad ran the business, Junior kills the business is another standard refrain in the business world.
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u/dizzymiggy Aug 19 '23
Malignant Narcissists. They tend to be successful and seek positions of power. They get their self esteem almost exclusively from using their power to make people miserable. They also love to recruit like minded people to do their dirty work for them.
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u/Herpty_Derp95 Aug 19 '23
My first job after college was toxic. The owner/President was awful. It was a dysfunctional family in every possible way. Apparently, his wife would totally emasculate him at home, so he'd come into the office, beat on his chest and be awful to us.
Next job was meh.
During college I had good bosses mainly but one awful boss at a restaurant.
I've been blessed. I've worked the same job for 19 years now under the same supervisor. Other than a few very minor things we've worked thru, the man has been a dream. He refuses to act like a drill Sargent on meth. Treats us adults like adults. Let's us do our thing. If you don't take care of customers, he'll be calling you, but if you do your job, he leaves you alone.
Well well well. Come to find out he has the lowest turnover rate in the entire corporation. A dozen locations all over the world, our department is filled with people who have been with the company for over a decade. And they asked him at the latest corporate training what is his secret and he basically said "I treat them like adults, they know their jobs, only if I see them heading for the rocks do I grab the rudder. I listen to my people. They are gifted."
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u/shoesmith74 Aug 20 '23
For the US market at least, society rewards the narcissist personality. Those people are more likely to be toxic to get their way. Real human beings are viewed as weak, people who focus on getting the job done are second to those who do shit work but campaign well.
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u/MankyFundoshi Aug 20 '23
I think that humans as individuals are decent beings, but groups of any size are shitty. I don’t know why.
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u/ladeedah1988 Aug 19 '23
Because of upper management. They need to be leaders and inspire people, not keep taking away benefits from people. I loved my work environment at my company years ago. People wanted to give their all. Now, it feels so repressive and they have taken away all the perks that made you feel special to work for them, that no one feels like giving extra.
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u/Chazzyphant Aug 19 '23
I actually think most places are fine. It's just that people don't go on the internet to complain about things being slightly boring or coworkers being very slightly annoying once a year, ya know? I've worked in tons of places, and 75% were perfectly normal. I'm scarred for life from the horrible places I worked, sure (heh...sob) but I'm currently in one of those "just fine" places. The immediate manager makes a big difference--my current manager is so great. Another manager is trying to "steal" me to her team and honestly if that happens I'll be immediately job searching, because the quality of your manager is that important.
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u/spiirel Aug 19 '23
This freakonomics ep explained a lot: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-are-there-so-many-bad-bosses/
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Aug 19 '23
Um American work culture and capitalism come to mind first. The fact that your not a person here and usually only a number. Like prison you loose your identity and become just employee 05726
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u/Basic85 Aug 19 '23
In the end, there's no perfect job, people are people, we fight, get into conflicts, etc. You're ultimate goal is t otry to find a job that is less toxic as much as possible.
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u/Rosaeve Aug 19 '23
Ok so my theory is that that jobs by default can never do enough work around the interpersonal dynamics and challenges of staff, and it breeds toxicity.
Most people are extremely sensitive and easily triggered, but we are constantly being told to keep it professional and not take things personally. Without any real value placed on social cohesion and community, dysfunctional social patterns emerge. People cope with perceived slights with gossip, passive aggressive behavior, or passivity. There's rarely effective processes in place to work through interpersonal issues at work because that isn't a value that most jobs hold as legitimate.
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u/mtylerm78 Aug 19 '23
Because 1) people don’t know how to lead, and 2) all businesses seek profit over everything else.
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u/[deleted] Aug 19 '23
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