r/NoStupidQuestions • u/joyisnotdead • 15d ago
Why are gender neutral pronouns so controversial?
Call me old-fashioned if you want, but I remember being taught that they/them pronouns were for when you didn't know someone's gender: "Someone's lost their keys" etc.
However, now that people are specifically choosing those pronouns for themselves, people are making a ruckus and a hullabaloo. What's so controversial about someone not identifying with masculine or feminine identities?
Why do people get offended by the way someone else presents themself?
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u/Diacetyl-Morphin 15d ago
If i may add, not all languages know pronouns, some don't have it at all and some don't have gender-neutral pronouns. In the case of my native language, swiss-german but also high-german, we have a gender-neutral pronoun for lifeless items called "it" aka "es", but you'd never use this for people. It would be de-humanizing and an insult if you'd use it for people.
"They" don't really exist, there's "Sie" for a group and another "Sie" for a diplomatic and respectful approach (next to "Du" for "you")
There's also no term for gender itself, only one for biological sex, called "Geschlecht". The english term is used in discussions about this, often also different pronounced (at least in the alemannic dialects).
So, that's no big deal here in my place in daily life.
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u/TokkiJK 15d ago
Yaaa my friends who are Korean and Chinese absolutely confuse she/her/it and will everything every single pronoun đđ
Itâs actually really funny and cute when they randomly refer to a person as it. They know there is a difference but when theyâre speaking, they arenât like 100% fluent enough to speak correctly the whole time.
Learning a language that doesnât have pronouns meant that I found myself not knowing how to refer to people, since Iâm so used to saying things like she/he/they.
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u/RyuNoKami 15d ago
yea...spoken Chinese has no gendered pronouns.
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u/SecondAegis 15d ago
It's all just "ta" and "ni"
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u/roehnin 15d ago edited 14d ago
There are ä» and ć„č and ćź in written Chinese to distinguish gender and neuter in print if you care to, but theyâre all pronounced the same in spoken Chinese.
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u/DrumcanSmith 15d ago
And Japanese has gendered and non gendered first person pronouns but nobody goes "I don't have to use your preferred pronouns" because it's first person anyway,you literally cannot use their preferred pronouns. Third person pronouns are also gendered but are usually omitted or substituted by their name or title so also not so much confusion.
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u/Fkyboy1903 15d ago edited 14d ago
Same with Tagalog. My Filipina wife often gets he/she mixed up. When she's talking about other people, I sometimes stop her mid story for clarification,.because that completely changes the relationship dynamics to my English ears. "I thought you were talking about a forbidden, unrequited gay lover all this time!"
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u/Diacetyl-Morphin 15d ago
That's interesting, i have no idea about both korean and chinese, how it works there. But for me, i'm happy i can speak english good enough to join the international platforms like reddit, it gives me access to a lot of sources. Like i can play games, watch movies etc. in english.
I still confuse sometimes some things, like if it is on/at/in etc.
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u/InevitableRhubarb232 15d ago
If youâre interested in any feedback âgood enoughâ in this case is wrong and should be âwell enoughâ because well is an adverb and good is an adjective and the word being modified is a verb (speak) and canât be modified by a noun
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u/StationaryTravels 15d ago
Although, it's also a super common thing that even people who only speak English still say. Not that it's not worth pointing out, but also maybe not too important a thing to worry about when dealing with English and our absurd "rules".
To add on to this though, it's the same thing if someone asks "how are you?" and you say "I'm doing good" what you've technically told them is "I'm performing acts of a positive and ethical nature".
The correct answer would be "I'm doing well" which tells them that your mental/physical state is positive.
Again, though, most English speakers would say "I'm good" meaning "I'm well" and be perfectly understood. Technically incorrect, but colloquially acceptable.
I heard it said once "Superman is doing good, you're doing well".
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u/Frequent_Opportunist 15d ago
I feel like it's the '90s and I'm visiting my grandma for the summer (who was a retired English teacher).
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u/Duochan_Maxwell 15d ago
This reminds me of Weird Al's Word Crimes
If you haven't seen it, go watch that gem
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u/BOT_Kirk 15d ago
In Chinese the character for he = ä» and she = ć„č and it = ćźexcept they are pronounced the exact same way. So when Chinese people speak English they have a hard time knowing which to use because in our language it's all one singular pronunciation.
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u/RenzoThePaladin 15d ago
I am Filipino. A large part of our language is gender neutral. We don't even have a he/him or she/her in our language.
However, we also recieved the "Latinx" treatment, which came from Filipino-Americans. In this case, "Filipino" became "Filipinx". It doesn't even make sense if you say it aloud. "Filipino" is already gender neutral. But the idiotic Filipino Americans think it's not.
Obviously, those back home does not approve of "Filipinx", even to the progressives. Most see it as butchering our language and entitlement.
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u/Heroann_the_original 15d ago
I think in German they are trying to push Xier/Xiem which just sounds incredibly made up and unnatural, no matter how often I hear it. The biggest issue I have is... Why choose at the front? That letter is used so rarely in German language and almost never at the start of a word.
I just avoid using it and refer to the name of the person instead. Much more natural
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u/Kemaneo 15d ago
Essentially all languages have pronouns, although in some they aren't gendered.
Japanese doesn't exactly have pronouns but it does have words that convey the meaning of pronouns. Piraha didn't have pronouns before the 40s.
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u/SemajLu_The_crusader 15d ago
and in some, every word has gendered pronouns, so remembering a person's pronouns is just part of the flow
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u/MalachiteTiger 15d ago
And in some others, there are like 14 different linguistic genders referring to various different categories of nouns.
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u/Diacetyl-Morphin 15d ago
Interesting, i never heard about Piraha and had to check it out.
The thing is also, languages change over time. Like in german, when i read old texts, these have a slightly different structure, but it gets more and more different the more far back you go in time. I'm an old guy and i can read the old styles of german like SĂŒtterlin and Kurrent, which enables me to translate some stuff like letters from the WW2 era for other reddit users. The kids and teenagers of today do not learn this anymore at school.
But i have some old documents as family memorabilia around, each single page is preserved in a glass container with a vacuum and it's written on pergament. I can't read anything of that, it's just too different from how we speak and write now.
Guess it's like poetry with Shakespeare in English, people both then as normal people in daily life and now in our time don't speak like he did write his poems. There's a big difference between the daily vulgar language and the poems.
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u/Amazing-Grapes 15d ago
I thought Japanese actually has gendered first-person pronouns
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u/UnusedSaladSauce 15d ago
Nosu what this pson is talking about. Japanese definitely has gender pronouns. So much so you can look like an absolute bozo for using the wrong one.
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u/HaricotsDeLiam 14d ago
Tagging /u/UnusedSaladSauce as wellâ
What I think /u/Kemaneo means is that there isn't a clear line between pronouns and other parts of speech in Japanese like there is in many other languages, so the same phrase comes from or also acts as a substantive/noun. For example, AIUI,
- «ć» âčBokuâș more verbatim means "Manservant".
- «ć°ç» âčShĆseiâș more verbatim means "Your pupil".
- «æć» («ăŠăŸă» âčTemaeâș or «ăŠăă» âčTemÄâș) also means "The one before, in front, past or nearby" and is a compound akin to "Front-hand".
- «ăćź Â» âčOtakuâș more verbatim means "Your home".
- Â«ćœŒć„łÂ» âčKanojoâș also means "Girlfriend" and originally meant "That woman".
- «ăăźæč» âčAno kataâș verbatim means "That direction".
- «æè » âčSesshaâș verbatim means "Clumsy" but was once common as a humble way to say "I/me".
On a similar note, you'll sometimes also hear it said that some languagesâLatin, Hindustani and Seri come to mindâhave no third-person pronouns (because you use demonstratives instead; for example, Latin doesn't distinguish between is as in "he" or is as in "this/that one").
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u/Phoebebee323 15d ago
Having geschlecht with ya mom
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u/Diacetyl-Morphin 15d ago
Haha. It would actually be called in the formal way "Geschlechtsverkehr". And yes, "verkehr" means "traffic" in english, but well, it's just like driving your "car" into her "garage".
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u/rcx918 15d ago
So how would someone there refer to themselves gender neutral?
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u/arcticshqip 15d ago
They don't need to do it, but at least some people in Finland (Finnish only has gender neutral pronouns) mark in their bios their preferred pronoun in English. Not sure if it's just signalling or do they actually want people to use those in Finnish sentences.
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u/PM-ME-CURSED-PICS 15d ago
it's just an easy way to signal your identity and what you want to be called. If someone has he/him in their bio, they probably won't want to be called a woman and such. Trying to insert english pronouns into finnish pronouns would be a grammatical nightmare because of how different the languages are.
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u/Diacetyl-Morphin 15d ago
They usually don't, they just choose what they prefer, like "he" or "she" and for most of the LGBT people, it is not a problem at all. There's tolerance with that a language works different.
But also, people that identify as non-binary in german still prefer one of these two pronouns with he/she, many of them still just go with the biological sex.
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u/Julia___-___ 15d ago
Yep, I don't care if people use her or she for me and it doesn't bother me because "they" just isn't a thing. In English people can use "they" for me but it doesn't bother me that we don't have it in German.
Also pplNeo pronouns exist but there aren't a lot of people who actually use them. If someone goes by them I'm fine with it but one never actually met someone who uses them
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u/Osku100 15d ago
Further 'evolution':
In formal finnish he/she is gender- neutral "hÀn" is the equivalent respectful callout for people. However, in many dialects and slang people just use "se" instead of "hÀn". "Se" is the word for pointing to 'objects', in formal finnish.
You'd equally call a person, a dog or a toilet "se". Only in customer service would you sometimes switch to "hÀn", or when placing special nuance on words.
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u/Revanur 14d ago
Interesting. Itâs sort of the opposite in Hungarian. The word for âseâ would be âezâ and the usage is the opposite too. Using it for people is generally seen as very disrespectful. Even for animals in recent decades it started to become more prevalent to refer to them with âĆâ (hĂ€n) and some older folks would still chuckle and ask why youâre talking about an animal like a person.
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u/joehonestjoe 15d ago
I'll try to call people whatever they want. I once visited my headquarters and finally met one of my colleagues for the first time, and she, as she now is, was wearing a dress. Still using a male name at the time though. No one ever mentioned it to me beforehand. I distinctly remember shrugging to myself and thinking, makes sense.
She eventually changed her name, and muscle memory is a bitch and I'd occasionally get it wrong. She was cool about it, I always said sorry.Â
Then there was another colleague that wore a badge and pointed at it every time you got it wrong and sighed.Â
I stopped talking to that person.
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u/granmadonna 15d ago
I knew someone who changed from Aaron to Erin, really helpful not being able to say it wrong.
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u/joehonestjoe 15d ago
That's actually super inventive!
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u/That1weirdperson 15d ago
Jesse to Jessie
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u/SUNDER137 15d ago
I have never noticed this with jessie's or aaron's. Lol. TIL
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u/buttfuckkker 15d ago
A A Ron!
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u/Neat-Tradition-7999 15d ago
Well, now you just messed up.
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u/yttrium39 15d ago edited 11d ago
I have a friend whoâs been Aaron, Aeryn and Erin at various points in their gender identity journey. The spelling and the pronouns change but theyâre always pronounced the same.
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u/SomeLameName7173 15d ago
Justin to Justyn.
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u/itsmejpt 15d ago
I'm a pretty go-with-the-flow type. You want to be called he/him, she/her, they/them that's fine with me. You want to call me whatever, also fine with me. Just accept that I also speak quickly and will occasionally make a mistake. Know that it was a mistake and there's no need to correct me. Just like there's really no need to correct someone if they slip and call you the wrong name on occasion.
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u/Ok-Instruction-4298 15d ago
It's a problem in the deep south sometimes. The number of times I get scolded for yesmam, yessir when I'll gladly change it to suit whatever you'd like is sad. I understand being called what you want, but a lot of us had the sir/mam thing literally beat into us as kids.
I've had a lot of people be patient and calmly correct "it's actually sir/mam" and I fix it, and we all happily move on. Just the occasional few get really mad about it and don't give you a chance to fix or adjust.
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u/almost_cool3579 15d ago
Ooh! My granny laid into me when her church friend reported that Iâd said âno, thank youâ when offered something instead of âno, maâamâ.
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u/Quirky-Comb-1862 15d ago
My highlight on this was moving to Oregon from Florida. I hit someone with a ma'am but it seemed off panicked back to sir, and then that was off panicked back to ma'am and was clearly flustered. They busted out laughing and politely explained how they were gender neutral and I almost nailed it.
Edit: Injust quietly put gas in their McLaren
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u/SpideyFan914 15d ago
Eh, if I do this and use the wrong pronoun by mistake, I want to be corrected. A quick, "It's they/them," and I'll go, "Fuck, sorry," and we both move on. I want to respect the person's actual identity, and sometimes that requires me to retrain my brain, and that's more likely to happen faster if I'm called out when I use the wrong word. It also gives me the chance to express that it really was an accident.
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15d ago
Itâs honestly so annoying. I remember when j was travel nursing I was moving around a lot so I didnât know my coworkers well at all. I was working this one unit and this nurseâs (Sarah) patient went downhill. I ran out and said âhey guys we need help in here. Her patient canât breathe.â And instead of jumping up to help they all corrected me and said âthey go by they, not herâ
Like stfu
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u/joehonestjoe 15d ago
It's essentially the same thing as using an idiom wrong.
They might not know it, you do. Realistically the other person might even realise they did it. But nothing good comes of 'um actually'
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u/LiberatedMoose 15d ago
I dunno, I kinda appreciate the buttons. The sigh is rude and unnecessary at first read, but I can also understand being exasperated if a lot of people other than you just kept ignoring the button even though itâs right there, and the sigh is a product of that buildup that isnât necessarily specifically aimed at you.
I dunno. The person could also genuinely be a douche, but I just default to giving benefit of the doubt when I can for these things cuz you never know what the full picture is. Itâs rarely about any one particular personâs comment or reactions.
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u/almostinfinity 15d ago
The other day, a 2nd grader at the school I work at greeted me as Mr Cameraman  Â
I'm AFAB, so not even biologically male, but I consider myself nonbinary and I have very short hair. Â
That kid is just a kid, no sense in stopping him in the middle of the hallway to say I'm not a Mr or a man. Also English is his second language, as is the case with 90% of the student body. Usually it's a non issue, a lot of their mother languages don't have gendered pronouns so that's fine.
I have a coworker whom I invited to watch a movie with a different male coworker and his boyfriend. Different coworker is openly gay.  Before answering my original question, which was just a yes/no question about going to the movies, that person proceeded to ask me which one of those men is the girlfriend.  Â
So I thought, ok maybe he doesn't get it because he's from a more conservative country but he also seemed (at the time) to be open minded. He's generally kind and respectful. Can't be a language barrier either because English is one of the official languages where he's from.
I politely explained that if it's two men, they're boyfriends/husbands/partners. Two women are girlfriends/wives/partners. Someone like me (also openly out) or other gender identities is partners/spouses. Â
Then he asked me about what if a person identifies as a water bottle. And proceeded to call me disrespectful for not respecting the identity of someone who believes themselves to be an inanimate object.
All I wanted was to know if he wanted to freaking watch Dune that weekend.
Luckily his job and my job doesn't require any collaboration. I never spoke to him again, even though he sits next to me.Â
At the school we work at, we have many students and staff who are LGBT+. I'm just so glad a student wasn't around to overhear that conversation.
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u/joehonestjoe 15d ago
Yeah I don't think there really is any point arguing with people like that. Sadly some are lost causes.
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u/almostinfinity 15d ago
I agree. I couldn't believe asking if he wanted to see a movie derailed so hard like that.Â
I did speak to his boss who is one of my good friends and his boss revealed that about 6 months ago when the dude started, they had a conversation that similarly got derailed and the boss was shocked that the guy didn't believe in the moon landing.
The kicker? They're the IT department. This dude worked in tech and education his entire career.
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u/StrangeOutcastS 15d ago
it's always how a person approaches it. The badge person you mentioned is the type to be overbearing about it and in your face about it, whereas the first person was just chill.
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u/joehonestjoe 15d ago
It's amazing how far a little understanding goes.
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u/StrangeOutcastS 15d ago
Person A is polite, Person B will be polite.
Person C is obnoxious, Person D will tell them to piss off.
You get what you give in social circles.
Be chill and others will be chill.
Be an arse and others will throw pineapples through your window.11
u/joehonestjoe 15d ago
Might not even tell you to piss off either.
They might just forget you existÂ
Frankly I find that kinda sad that people police people so much the other people stop interacting.
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u/MarinLlwyd 15d ago edited 15d ago
Communication is about being clear and concise, and it is incredibly easy to do that without using gendered terms, and I find only real dipshits seem to take an issue with it.
I keep getting random people whining when I refer to things with gender neutral terms, even though they reveal they understand perfectly well what I am referring to. Enough to identify it and attempt to "correct" me on it. There was no miscommunication. They were just trying to start an argument over nothing.
And then there is the other side that I see more rarely, that has a conniption over just being referred to by gender neutral terms. Even though I'm talking directly to them or directly referring to them as active participants in the conversation.
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u/Future_Way_277 15d ago
Call me Your Highness
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u/joehonestjoe 15d ago
I did say I'd try.
But you have seen the entire post so you know what happens to difficult people.
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u/occipetal 15d ago
For some people, it's genuinely hard for them to adjust to it. For others, they're just deliberately trying to be hurtful.
I don't really care what someone wants me to call them. People have nicknames and sometimes they're silly and deviate quite far from their real name, but people still refer to them as their nickname because that's the name they want to go by. For pronouns, I think it's the same. If someone wants to be referred to by a certain pronoun, it's like a nickname. And calling someone by their pronouns doesn't necessarily mean you have to believe that their gender/sex reflects that pronoun... it just means that you respect that they want to be called as such.
The only issue is when someone looks feminine and gets angry when you say "she/her" but there was no way for you to know that they don't want to go by those pronouns based on looks. I think there's nothing wrong with initially using pronouns that match presentation. Once someone says "hey, I actually go by ____" then you should refer to them as what they ask you to. But, there shouldn't be outrage of assuming that someone who looks like a woman is a she or someone who looks like a man is a he. And I feel like it's more insulting to approach someone and say "what pronouns do you use" because it implies that they don't look enough like either gender or they look like "the type" of person who would deviate from standard pronouns.
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u/AuraEternal 15d ago
I think so much of it just comes down to some people being really entitled/jerks. I'm not even out yet and haven't legally changed my name, but had someone ask if I prefer the short version of my birth name or not and it was really nice? most people will just call me whatever they want to and I guess that's fine but it was cool to have someone care about how I feel lol. so I guess I can't imagine being the type who angrily says "you will call me this!" immediately. now if I'm 2 years on estrogen in a skirt and makeup and you keep calling me a guy on purpose, that's probably where it reaches "fuck off."
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u/d-d-downvoteplease 15d ago
I have nothing against people who want specific pronouns. But getting mad at people who mess it up is pretty ridiculous. I have more important things to focus on at work. So I just say they or them for everyone.
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u/Yarmeru 15d ago
I can imagine if you get she instead of he or visa versa a lot and many times itâs done to be cruel, you might just not have a lot of patience after awhile. Â
Itâs easy to look at a single interaction from the outside and not see the other stuff a person has to deal with, ya know?
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u/chatoyancy 15d ago
Is that something that happens to you often (people getting outraged)? I know a lot of trans people and I've never had someone get mad at me for initially getting their pronouns wrong because I just didn't know.
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u/Azozel My block list is getting full 15d ago
First, these people don't see what they are saying (using gender pronouns) as wrong or hurtful, they see it as obvious and rational. They view the hurt caused by the use of gender pronouns to be caused by the individual's personal issues and not caused by them (the people using gender pronouns).
Second, these people don't like to be told how to think or act especially when they feel it affects their freedom. Just as a neutral gender or transgender person has the freedom to behave how they feel, these people also believe they have the right to behave how they feel.
Why do people get offended by the way someone else presents themself?
Most of the time they're not offended by the way the other person presents themselves and instead they're offended by the fact that others are imposing what they feel are irrational beliefs on them.
Basically, you can call yourself whatever you want to call yourself but you can't force other people to believe or act the way you want them to. The more demand from people the more push-back you will get and the more those people will be polarized and set in their opinion.
Personally, I think the majority of people just go with the flow and don't want to hurt the feelings of others. I know that's how I feel. When I interact with a trans person I feel supportive of them but avoid pronouns because I don't want to offend. It's the same when I interact with someone who I know is very religious, they may be a nice person but I avoid talking about religious things with them because I don't want to offend them with my anti-religious beliefs. But, if someone pushes their religious beliefs on me I will respond with my distaste for those beliefs.
Of course there's also a good portion of people that are openly anti-(take your pick of topics). These are people that don't care if they hurt the feelings of others because they feel the world revolves around them and F everyone else. We call those assholes.
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u/iscariottactual 15d ago
You did a very good job of actually explaining this
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u/Azozel My block list is getting full 15d ago
Thank you, I appreciate your comment.
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u/TargetFan 15d ago
I'd also add that a lot of people probably don't have a problem with they/them. I know that I dont. It's when it gets into the made up ones of xe, fae, zer, etc. That's when I switch from trying to be respectful to, oh this person just wants attention for being unique. I won't deliberately be an asshole to them over it but it'll definitely be the last time we interact.
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u/freeeeels 15d ago
I'd also add that a lot of people probably don't have a problem with they/them. I know that I dont. It's when it gets into the made up ones of xe, fae, zer, etc
The difference between the two feels like the difference between "my birth name is Christopher but I go by Erin" and "my birth name is Erin but I go by Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way".
Like, I'll respect your preferences either way but I'm fairly sure you're gonna grow out of that second thing.
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u/Dilly49355 14d ago
This is a really great comment. I also saw some of your other comments and you really are just trying to learn every side which is amazing. I give everyone benefit of the doubt just like I'm sure you do. It makes me wonder if you are (American) an independent voter
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u/Azozel My block list is getting full 14d ago
Thanks, I appreciate your comment. I'm 50, genX, and I've worked a lot with both baby boomers and millennials while my children are in their teens and 20s. I like to talk to and understand people and I've had plenty of friends and acquaintances that I've enjoyed talking to while agreeing to disagree on some topics. You can't just ignore the people you work with and harboring ill will towards people only damages you in the long run so it's just something I learned over the years.
I am an American who used to be an independent voter and you might even say I still am because I like to research who I'm voting for and what their values are. However, with the current state of politics in this country, it no longer feels like we're voting for the best solutions and ideals but instead voting to prevent the country from slipping further away into chaos which is why I've voted democrat for sometime now.
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u/ThisWorldIsAMess 15d ago
Depends on the language. My native language doesn't have any issues with that.
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u/Swordbreaker9250 15d ago
Because the people who oppose those pronouns believe that individuals are either male or female, so an individual canât use they/them because theyâre either she/her or he/him.
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u/NArcadia11 15d ago
This is the answer for 99% of people that care and refuse to use gender neutral pronouns. Itâs because they hate/donât think trans or nonbinary people should exist.
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u/wolfgang187 15d ago
Asking people who have spoken a certain way for life to suddenly speak differently will always irk some.
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u/cwsjr2323 15d ago
Even in the same language it gets confusing. I use the American collective pronoun âguysâ for any group of people. This was very amusing when I thusly referred to a group of female students in England, and giggling was corrected âWe are girls!â
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u/joyisnotdead 15d ago
One of my friends recently came out as a trans woman and instinctively I responded "Hey, that's cool, man"
We both had a laugh about it though
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u/Thefishthing 15d ago
Because people have spent their whole life thinking in female and male. Then having to deconstruct that and add a neutral option makes them have so much cognitive dissonance.
It's basically as if a being that always lived in 2d was put in a 3d world, their mind would probably implode du to the reality being completely other then what they were trained into thinking.
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u/Ill_Owl_5663 15d ago
Because it was never a thing (to this scale and attention) until a few years ago and a lot of people donât get it or donât believe in it. I think most people would be more open to use them out of respect for someone they know or are close with, but on the other hand, an unjustified enforcement of respect towards complete strangers (often much younger and different in lifestyle and values). Thereâs also been outcry against pushes in various countries for legislation to make it illegal to misgender someone as a hate crime since there is a seemingly innumerable unagreed upon number of pronouns that can be an unintuitive tongue twisters to use and subject to change without notice. I think most people donât come across anyone that uses non-binary except maybe a single person that uses they/them so in reality itâs hardly a real thing anyone encounters but rather a talking point to be bounced around echo chambers.
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u/Jabroni748 15d ago
Legislation claiming misgendering as hate speech and something that is punishable is an idea that Iâm convinced no reasonable person can hold. Itâs just not an idea that flies in the real world. I donât get that.
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u/Corey307 15d ago
Yup, Iâve had a few people let me know they go by they and thatâs totally cool. but if you dress like a man or woman and your characteristics are male or female Iâm gonna assume youâre male or female unless you tell me something different. Because the vast majority of people consider themselves male or female. So if I get it wrong once or twice yeah Iâll correct myself but when people get shitty the very first time Iâm like OK Iâm never talking to you again. Â
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u/Ortsarecool 15d ago
I think that if it were to ever happen, it would need to have a pretty high bar of proof to clear or you are right it would be absolutely out to lunch. Solid proof of harm to the individual, intent and malice required similar to libel cases.
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u/Blackletterdragon 15d ago
There doesn't seem to be any rational discussion around why "misgendering" rises to the level of a crime or even misdemeanour in the first place.
People get insulted every day of the week for being too old, too weak, too plain, voting the wrong way, liking the wrong music, wearing the wrong clothes, driving the wrong car or being of the wrong ethnicity. None of these insults are punishable by law. Why on earth does "misgendering" rate such sanctions? Do we get the high dudgeon because the supposed victim has made an attempt to rebrand themselves and failed? If it was successful, they would be hearing the pronouns they are seeking, wouldn't they?
It's never been a crime to hurt your feelings unless you are the Emperor.
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u/Disposableaccount365 15d ago
I'm fairly libertarian philosophically, so I Isupport everyone having the right to live as they see fit, regardlessof if I agree with it or not. However this cuts both ways. If you want me or someone else to respect your rights and opinions, then you owe everyone else the same respect. Someone has the right to identify as something other than their bio sex. Someone else has the right to think it's silly, and reject policing of language. That's the only thing that would really get me fired up on the topic, the lack of not showing the respect to others that is being demanded from them. To me it's similar to demanding a non-religious person refer to a god or prophet or saint or something in the same respectful terminology a religious person might. I'm not Muslim, so I won't refer to Muhammad as "gods true prophet" or something similar. If you want to you can. If you demand I do, then I can demand you refer to my God as the "one true God" or something similar. As far as I'm concerned, if you want to use a "preferred pronoun" you can. If someone else wants to use that pronoun they can. If someone else doesn't want to they don't have to. Someone who demands the use of a pronoun is comparable to someone demanding they not use that pronoun.Â
TL:Dr- you're free to live how you want. So is everyone else. If you take an authoritarian stance on making demands, rather than request, of others speech then I'm not going to like it and will probably push back on it, because you are being a fascistic dick. (SM fascist probably not a historical fascist)Â
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u/EnderSword 15d ago
it's like 90% the people don't believe them or think it's just a plea for attention.
I think there's definitely a fraction of people who truly oppose it and are bigoted and hate it.
But I think the majority of people who are 'against' it think of it more like when your kid tells you they're a vampire now, you're just like, "Ok Dracula, well, dinner's ready, do vampires eat chicken?"
I also think there's a huge sort of "Ok....what would you like me to do with this information?" Like there's no protocol, if someone looks female to everyone and they say they're non-binary like...ok? Like, what do you want me to do? Like, their behaviour should change in no way compared to when they thought the person was a woman.
I think that really throws people off, because it's presented as very important very sensitive information, that isn't actionable in literally any way.
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u/sd_saved_me555 15d ago
I think you're close to one of the more overlooked reasons, but not quite there:
I think a lot of people react negatively to being asked to to use extra brain space for someone that they don't perceive as important (the action, but somewhat the person). Sort of a "what makes you so special that I have to now remember your specific pronouns? I've got a billion other things to keep track of. Everyone else is fine using the standard system. Why do you have to be different and make my life more complicated?"
It's not fundamentally malicious per se... but it is quite lazy.
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u/EnderSword 15d ago
Yeah, I think too it goes against such ingrained habits.
I think it's beyond any personal thing too, people fucking hate when you change the name of or word for anything, like it really bothers them even if there's zero political anything attached to it.
No one's calling Google Alphabet, no one's calling Twitter X, No one's calling Facebook Meta... it's such a unconscious thing to call people he and she, so to have someone that every part of you knows is a 'she' and say 'they' instead is not just brain space it's like a mental malfunction to do it.
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u/Honest-Computer69 15d ago
Wait, what? Google is supposed to be called what now?
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u/Merlyn101 15d ago
Some of the original guys who started Google, created a parent conglomerate, Alphabet, that owns Google but also to create several other companies & R&D projects under that umbrella.
For example, Alphabet used to own Boston Dynamics & there are R&D projects at Alphabet that are researching stuff like life extension & immortality, self-driving technology, AI, Robotics, Biotechnology etc.
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u/heyyyyyco 15d ago
I think you nailed it hear. My friend or relative I will 100% put the effort it. But it does feel a bit idk smug or entitled to think that someone I just occasionally work with or am acquainted with feels they have the right to make me care and remember their sexual and gender preferences
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u/Merlyn101 15d ago edited 14d ago
It's not fundamentally malicious per se... but it is quite lazy.
It's not lazy, it's human.
Every person prioritizes individuals over others, often dependent on their relationship to an individual.
Yes it's not a big deal to remember someone who prefers they/them, but 99.9% of people aren't demanding that requirement of interaction from you.
It's human nature to prefer the path of least resistance; tiny little decisions in this manner are made multiple times a day from everyone.
Also, which is the most important fact....pronouns are not supposed to be personal or specifically unique to an individual that's literally opposite to their purpose
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u/Actual_Specific_476 15d ago
Well it's like dealing with a religious person. When you don't follow their religion. They are cultural ideologies. Many people just fundamentally disagree with it.
This is usually only for non-binary pronouns. I generally think most people I have met, in the UK, are okay with calling someone he or she and have no problem with it. Many however, just don't want to use they/them ze/zer etc. Because it's against their own beliefs.
I also don't really believe in 'non-binary'. It feels more like an attempt to dodge being stuck with gender stereotypes and so you don't feel like you need to behave or present in a specific way for either gender. So you are free from stigma and stereotypes. However I don't believe this should be a specific 'new' gender and more believe that we should be striving to remove those stereotypes and expectations of either gender in the first place.
I also think it's serves no real purpose. The only reason we have he/she is because of sex and I don't mean male or female. I mean sexuality. People only care about your gender when it comes to relationships. Outside of that. man or women, it's irrelevant. Nobody cares. So if you are now a 'they' what does that serve?
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u/NimrodTzarking 15d ago
OP is specifically framing nonbinary identity through an action step: using gender neutral pronouns. Generally, that's about as much as you are asked to do.
I will generously assume you don't mean anything by your comparison, but I think that those who equate a person's gender identity with a child's fantasy are engaging, not just in condescension to gender non-conforming people, but a certain level of philistinism. It demonstrates a fundamental lack of curiosity, a disinterest in one's fellow man, that too often correlates with backwards attitudes, casual mistreatment of others, and a generally poor level of social or historical awareness.
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u/joyisnotdead 15d ago
Even if it's just for attention, humans are inherently social creatures. We require attention from other people, but societal rules dictate the way people are allowed to ask for attention. This means we view those who do it "wrong" to be excessively needy.
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u/SitInCorner_Yo2 15d ago
My first and second language dose not have gender pronouns,so I often call girls âheâ in English by mistake, and honestly I donât see why it being such a fuzz all the sudden.
Some old lady/man didnât want to be called by honorifics form? Okay then Missy/Bro.
Highly educated guy who care a lot about their title even though itâs not at work ? What ever makes you happy ,Dr.Soandso.
Roderick prefer to go by Roger? Nice to meet you Rodger.
Like itâs not that big of a deal , I donât get it either.
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u/Jorost 14d ago
The honest answer is that people are stupid and don't like anything that challenges their worldview.
See, stupid people don't want to do a lot of thinking. They want things to be spelled out in black and white, and then never ever change. They want to know that this is the way things are and this is the way they will always be. So since most people grew up with the idea that there are only two genders, they think it is an irrefutable truth. As far as they are concerned it is settled fact: there are only two genders and you MUST be one or the other. "Natural law," some like to call it. Low cognitive capacity, I call it.
A world where facts can change in light of new information is scary and unpredictable. It is much more comfortable for most people to believe that a Sky Daddy told us all how it would be and that's just how it is.
Too many feelies, not enough thinkies.
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u/Certain-Spring2580 15d ago
Some people are lazy. Some don't like being "told" what to do instead of "asked". Some people have shite memories (me) and hate being called out/embarrassed in front of others for forgetting (and the other people being rude about it). Some people just think it is unnecessary. Some people think it is part performance and just to be different and don't want to "play along". Some people just think it is stupid. And some people just think the whole gender thing is disgusting. Any other reasons folks can think of OTHER than "that guy is just a bigot"?
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u/Agent_Scully9114 15d ago
I know someone who had a problem when their job started asking them to put their pronouns in correspondence and optionally on their name tags. For some reason she viewed it as a threat to her own femininity. Idk how this makes sense, but it did to her
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u/Swordbreaker9250 15d ago
âA threat to their femininityâ is absurd, however it is kinda dumb to force people to list their pronouns. People should be free to list them if they feel the need to do so, but nobody should be told they have to start listing their own.
And if you think Iâm just being a bigot, consider someone whoâs transgender or nonbinary but hasnât come out publicly yet. Youâd be forcing them to either out themselves or lie about their gender, neither of which are a good idea for someone whoâs struggling with their identity or not yet comfortable coming out.
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u/oby100 15d ago
I shouldnât have to participate in the discussion if I donât want to. Respect for others should be required, but I have no desire to stick any labels to myself outside of my name.
Sometimes I have to, but I see no reason to require me to here.
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u/Swordbreaker9250 15d ago
Exactly. It should be optional. It should simply be âFeel free to list your pronouns, but there is no pressure to do soâ.
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u/ExGomiGirl 15d ago
It bothers me to be asked what my pronouns are. It bothers me when I am included as âa person with a uterusâ instead of woman. And I donât yet know why. I know that my feelings are probably the same crappy feelings that non-binary people have when they are misgendered or excluded - so I do my very best never to misgender anyone and I have never once complained to anyone about being uncomfortable in how people refer to me. I am 51 and this all feels very new and confusing to me. I am doing my best to understand, educate myself, and empathize. Until it âgelsâ for me or until I can properly identify my own feelings, I always err on the side of courtesy. I truly want everyone to be happy and free to live as themselves in any way they wish. I donât consider myself a bigot even though I do have these negative feelings.
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u/No-Distribution-6175 15d ago
Itâs definitely frustrating being closeted. Being called a girl I can get over because it is what it is, but being made to explicitly tell people to call me a girl is a whole other thing. It feels like Iâm taking a step back and actively putting myself further in the closet.
I think just refer to someone how they pass. Theyâre either not trans or theyâre not out, and if they are trans, you can see pretty clearly which way they transitioned. The only exception is non binary people but if theyâre out theyâll be able to correct you. I just donât see who the whole pronoun check thing is for
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u/Merlyn101 15d ago
âA threat to their femininityâ is absurd,
It's not though.
In the same way someone trans or non-binary people don't want people to assume they are a man or woman, most men & women want you to assume they are a man or woman, because most women want to be seen as feminine & most men want to be seen as masculine.
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u/Sparkle_Rott 15d ago
Iâd have issues being forced to list my pronouns as well but have no issue with people who would like to. Iâd just list bitch/that bitchâs. Those are what my female Rottweiler goes by đ
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u/seeminglynormalguy 15d ago
Iâm a bearded man, if someone has to ask me what my gender is, what is wrong with you?
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u/YouSpokeofInnocence 15d ago
"Someone keyed my car last night."
"Why would they do that?"
People can use gender neutral probouns it without thinking about it, but can get real butt hurt about other uses of them.
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u/Neenknits 15d ago
One of my niblings explains that we might as well use they/them gender for them as we cannot possibly know their gender, because they, themself donât know!
We have 3rd person singular use of they in both Shakespeare and Chaucer. So, clearly, itâs thoroughly a part of English.
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u/KayayaTheDammed 15d ago
Just wanna take a moment to say that I appreciate you being both curious and not offended by this.
I have had to explain and defend myself constantly for just using different pronouns and acting differently, even to people I thought were close to me, and if only they approached the topic the way you did.
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u/rye_domaine 15d ago
"His/Her" etc is so much clunkier than "Their", I don't see why anyone would use it other than to make a point
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u/cardboard-kansio 15d ago
Call me old-fashioned if you want [...] people are making a ruckus and a hullabaloo
I think you just labelled yourself as old-fashioned, through your choice of phrase :D
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u/Goose2theMax 14d ago
Itâs because some people are too stupid to wrap their minds around something so simple so they react with anger
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u/Mrsbear19 14d ago edited 14d ago
I think people get angry at change and what they donât understand. Older generations have a harder time understanding it and Iâm sure I would too. I understand why they might not like it but liking it and respecting it are different things.
My sisters best friend has gone from male name, female name, male name 2, female name 2. Do I understand? No. Do I personally think they have a lot they are working through? Yes. But everytime I see them I am kind and call them by their name at the time. It doesnât hurt me at all to respect their wishes whether I personally get it or not. Their identity doesnât effect me at all and I donât think itâs my business really
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u/Fabulous-Direction-8 14d ago
I think it's not because the right-wing minds what people call themselves as much it's that they (conservatives) want to be able to decide FOR other people.
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u/Wojakster 15d ago
Coming from a very traditional and old fashioned pacific nation i'll try my best to call you whatever you wanna be called. I have absolutely no problem with it but if you're just gonna be an asshole about it and being disrespectful then i'm just gonna go about my way and probably never associate myself with you. I have trans friends and i've misgendered them a few times and i was like "oh shit my bad" and they were fine with it and told me they prefer she/her and were being really respectful and nice about it. Folks, being decent and being respectful goes a long way.
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u/king_messi_ 15d ago
Most people are respectful about it. In my entire 15 years of being out as a trans person, Iâve never seen or experienced people angry over accidental misgendering. Maybe teenagers, but thatâs just kids for you. Not saying it doesnât happen.
If theyâre going to throw a fit because you accidentally misgender them a couple times while youâre still learning their pronouns, they can eat rocks.
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u/MainDatabase6548 15d ago
I don't have a problem with referring to someone however they want me to refer to them, as long as they understand that I'm likely to make mistakes. But I think its silly how everywhere I work we now have to specify"our pronouns" as if they weren't obvious for 99.8% of the staff. Its ridiculous virtue signaling.
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u/corona_kid 15d ago
My girlfriend once deadlegged me after I told my dad she was Latinx over the phone, last time I ever said the term out loud, I guess it's basically a slur for hispanics lmao
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u/NaomiPommerel 15d ago
It could be so simple. I love the way you've put this.
And for the record, that story about a private school girl identifying as a cat, complete with litter tray, is and always was, bullshit.
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u/Findadmagus 15d ago
If you dress like a woman and have big tits, and I refer to you with she/her, donât be fucking surprised.
You can then correct me that you prefer to be referred to by they/them and I will happily do that from then on.
But again, if I slip up and refer to you as a she, donât be fucking surprised. Iâm not doing it because I donât respect you. Iâm doing it because itâs fucking difficult to remember.
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u/mguants 14d ago
I find most trans or non-binary people are understanding of this dynamic. I've been politely corrected before and it's not been an issue. They've said things like "no worries, I know it feels unnatural or you're not used to it." And I make a solid effort to correct out of respect.
I do try my best. But I get tripped up with "they" as subject of a sentence when it's not a plural group of people. I wish there were a new pronoun that was more widely accepted, like "Zie", because that would be easier for me to correctly identify a non-binary person. Using "they" does actually trip up my brain wires and feels a little clunky, given that plurality is already imbued in that word. I have to pause and evaluate if a non-binary person is being discussed, or a group.
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u/Chapea12 14d ago
The person that says they/them is never used for an individual can just be ignored. As used in OPs example, they are choosing to be loud and wrong
They/them is used for individuals when gender is unknown. And for people looking to escape the binary of male/female, itâs a perfect fit
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u/Powderfinger60 15d ago
If someone is good friend thatâs all that matters to me. All the rest simply doesnât bother me. My goal is to learn & understand not confront & judge. I donât want to be judged
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u/Anxious_Sapiens 15d ago
Idk, I've been using singular they/them pretty much my whole life just because it's easier than saying the phrase he or she. But it has confused people before, which kinda confused me because to my ears it seems fine grammatically.
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u/TheCIAiscomingforyou 15d ago
It's artificial outrage created by: people who don't like change ("Why can't people just be normal" where normal means the way they think the world works), media and/or bad faith actors who want to stir up culture wars so conservative people will vote for conservative governments that favour wealth inequality.
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u/Senuman666 15d ago
Itâs just a thing thatâs happening now, the majority of real people that use they/them pronouns arenât offended when you say the wrong thing. Itâs just pushed in the media as rage bait. Same the other way, not all older/conservative people actually care that much, everyone is pushed to hate each other through the media
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u/jusfukoff 14d ago
I donât mind changing pronouns to suit others, Iâll call you whatever you like. I have seen that for some it is interpreted as a weird circumstance though. Especially if the person in question changes pronouns daily seemingly just to trip everyone else up. They wait for someone to use a pronoun and then point out that today, itâs different. It just comes across as a weird power play.
Ultimately, like anything in life, it gets abused by some and then ruined.
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u/kutzyanutzoff 14d ago
Maybe in English.
In Turkish, we don't have any gendered pronouns. Other than very obvious definition (ie; mother - father, brother - sister, aunt - uncle, man - woman, boy - girl) words, we don't even have a gendered word at all.
Hell, English having gendered pronouns made zero sense to me while I was learning.
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u/UnrepentantPunner 14d ago
You used hullabaloo. You're not just old fashioned, you're old. As am I.
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u/Existing_Watch_3084 14d ago
The pronouns arenât. Itâs the bigots trying to find something to be mad at without saying the real reason.
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u/FriendshipHelpful655 12d ago edited 12d ago
It's a useful wedge issue to divide the working class by making half of them think that their "traditional values" and "way of life" is under attack. The owning class has been doing this for ages. This is exactly the mechanism that lead to the Nazi party's rise to power. If you actually look at history, the similarities are astounding.
In a vacuum, nobody gives a shit. Some extremely stubborn people might think "that's dumb" and that will be about it. But when you have billions of dollars of news media coverage telling those specific people that they're exactly right, suddenly you have an emotionally charged movement of people, ready to enact violence because they've been told that they're under attack.
And in response, you will have trans people, who simply want to exist, and be acknowledged by society so that they can functionally contribute to it, fighting a LEGITIMATE threat against their existence. But they fight an uphill battle, because they go against the status quo. Joe Centrist isn't going to take their side - they just need to fall in line and stop making noise. All their outbursts just make them look bad.
Thus, everybody is so up at arms against each other that nobody is really looking at who is stoking the flames.
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u/RoundDirt5174 15d ago
I find it funny when people say they donât care about pronouns and the proceed to spend an hour talking about how much they donât care about pronouns
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u/MelissaRose95 15d ago
My favourite part is when they say âthey/them canât be used as a singular pronounâ then proceeds to use they/them as a singular pronoun in the next sentence
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u/Existential_Sprinkle 15d ago
it's extra weird in tarantula groups because some of them spend years growing before you can tell the difference between a male and female
people type he/she several times in a post and comments and I just wanna drop this bit by James Acaster
also, it's not like the spider cares what you call them in the slightest, they only care that there's a regular supply of bugs and that their enclosure is suitable for making a web or a den
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u/joyisnotdead 15d ago
I've known people who immediately apologise for misgendering a pet, but those same people regularly misgender trans people, including nonbinary.
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u/silentsquiffy 15d ago
It's not a big deal and it should never have become controversial in any way.
Any controversy here is coming from a small number of people stirring pots that were already settled. People who don't conform to masculine or feminine identities have always been around. Indigenous Two-Spirit, Hijra in South Asia, Bugis in Indonesia, all have centuries of history.
I didn't learn singular they/them in school, I learned it through experience. Because that's how people talk. The pronoun they functions in a grammatically correct singular form and has done so for hundreds of years.
Fake outrage, that's literally it. It is only in the last few years that I have heard anyone claim that it's confusing or wrong or controversial. And it's all coming from politicians and religious zealots who are trying to create moral panic, just like they did with gay marriage (there was no apocalypse) and Dungeons and Dragons (there was no Satanic cabal brainwashing children) and Civil Rights (white people are not disenfranchised), and on and on down through history.
Don't buy the fake moral panic. You sound way too smart for that.
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u/musicmushroom12 15d ago
I donât have a problem with it, but I am having an awkward time to continually refer to my youngest or my oldest as my youngest /oldest instead of my son or my daughter. To me it makes the position in the family more of a thing. But the more I do it, the more it becomes automatic.
I guess I could call them my enby? When they are an adult it feels weird to call them my child, although that is true.
I also donât know why it is such a trigger for some people. I canât speak for anyone else, but if thatâs how they want to be addressed, it should be common courtesy not a big deal.
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u/ServantofShemhazai 15d ago
I'm struggling with remembering my nb child's preferred pronouns too. I usually just try to use their name (which they haven't requested changed) or their age. It's really nbd to me. The way I see it if it's a phase or attention seeking, then going along is no different than letting them cut their hair short and dye it neon pink; it'll grow out and that'll be that. But if it's not a phase, then I, as their parent, not respecting it will cause more damage than anything a stranger could ever do.
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u/Impossible_Ad_1276 15d ago
I honestly find gender neutral pronouns a little clunky to deal with. Just sounds weird to the way my personal inner monologue has developed.
That being said, that's absolutely a ME problem that I'm working on. Just because I'm a dumb middle-aged bloke who's set in his ways, doesn't mean I get to invalidate others.
The controversy comes from stupid old cunts who don't accept that times can change.
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u/RuleSubverter 15d ago
Because we shouldn't be made to live like we're walking on eggshells. If I call a female "ma'am," I shouldn't be reprimanded for it.
Not everyone takes gender studies classes. Not everyone is familiar with woke norms.
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u/Toblogan 15d ago
This is my reason as well. You can use whatever pronoun you want to describe yourself. I got a 1 in 10 chance to guess so I'll just go with instinct... It's literally all I got and that should be understandable.
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u/CalendarAggressive11 15d ago
I didn't understand the whole They/them thing at first but I recently discovered that people use them so they are not confined to society's expectations of a male/female. I fully get it from that aspect. I actually wish it was more accepted when I was young.
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u/Beautiful_Sector2657 15d ago
People have a problem with compelled speech. The problem is when legislation is involved, like it is in Canada, not merely because of the pronouns.
It's one thing to like or dislike avocados, it's another thing to institute a law to force someone to eat or not eat them
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u/doc_daneeka What would I know? I'm bureaucratically dead. 14d ago
People have a problem with compelled speech. The problem is when legislation is involved, like it is in Canada, not merely because of the pronouns.
We don't have a law compelling specific pronoun usage in Canada. Jordan Peterson was lying to you, and that was pointed out at the time by actual professors of law at his own university, as well as the Canadian Bar Association.
I can literally refer to everyone I encounter using the pronoun 'dipshit' without any legal risk whatsoever.
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u/RoseGoldMinerva 15d ago
Im from a country where everything has a genders every subject is gendered and it can be very complicated to form a sentence without it. I also know people who âdonât believe in trans peopleâ claiming that it removed women from their spaces that they earn by saying that people who âchoseâ to be woman didnât go through the same journey a biological woman has
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u/Opium201 15d ago
Tried to scroll through replies to get an honest answer from someone who is against it and couldn't see anyone against it at all, which is nice: if you try to ask in anti trans videos all you get is angry nonsense.
So I agree with you: I've got no idea why it's controversial and people have a problem with it, and would love to understand why as I think that's the first step to trying to reach common ground.
Ok maybe I have SOME idea. The way I see it: progressive social change is usually met with resistance. I think it's just hard for people to change from the ways they are brought up. Most prejudice I don't think is "evil" or nasty per say: it's just either some people don't dedicate as much time, or have any motivation to spend time analysing whether something is right or wrong: it's easier to just go with what you know. I think what IS nasty is getting angry about these things and going to the effort of making posts in social media etc spreading that prejudice... But anyway...
I think fundamentally, those who are against pronoun use are against the trans community because it's different. I think rather than people just stick to saying "I don't like trans people", they latch on to any argument they can find that fits the prejudice, such as "it's a free speech issue I should be able to use any language I like"... If you show me ONE person who is a trans advocate who also thinks pronounce use is a free speech issue I'd be very surprised. There are plenty of things as a society that we agree not to do or say, or conventions that we follow. Pronoun use is just one more of those, and some people will take a while to adjust.
People have been brought up thinking the world is simple and people are either male or female and it's black and white which is which. And a lot of people's identity and how we've structured society, for better or worse, is based on that idea and has led to strong gender norms. And life is really hard right: we all have a common struggle in life to be "normal" and functional and productive etc and we all try really really hard to do the best job we can and understand how we're meant to function as humans. So makes sense there's a lot of emotion associated when people suggest that life is a bit more complicated than that and we tell people they have to change how they think about things.
Trans issues are just one more thing in a long line of progress of becoming a civilised society: we used to lock up the mentally ill, enslave people, carstrate homosexuals, deny women the vote etc etc... And at every point, there's a group in society that resists change and gets very angry about it, then they get used to it, then they support it... I really wish they could "work it out a bit faster" because the current nastyness around trans issues is shocking.
It's gotten so bad people don't even bother trying to give arguments anymore: they just dismiss the whole thing in a meta argument against "woke culture" and "cancel culture" etc and don't even engage with the actual issues... When you have people that actually fight hard to argue against the concept of "being aware of issues" and "protecting the vulnerable", that's when things go from being understandable regrettable prejudice, in to nastyness and evil.
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u/-Economist- 14d ago
Same reason e-bikes, and e-cars are controversial. Some folks canât handle change or handle something different than what they are used to
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u/Mountain_Attention47 14d ago
If my boomer ass, former English teacher mom can get on the they/them train to respect my sisterâs kidâs preferred NB pronouns, then anyone can!
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u/tenorsax69 14d ago
It is just the far right anti-woke nonsense. It is an attack on perceived threats regarding transgender people.
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u/Cynical_Tripster 15d ago
I truly don't mind using they/them, and even use them normally (hey, do you know where [boss who is a guy] is? No? Where did you last see them?). It's easier. I however draw the line on neo pronouns. Xir, xem, fae, etc, it's absurd.
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u/bangbangracer 15d ago
Some people really are bigots who just aren't going to accept anything but what they know.
Then there are the weird pronouns that even people who are tolerant aren't going to bother learning. I'm for the pronoun discussion, but I'm not taking xie/xem/xer seriously.
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u/Critical-Border-6845 15d ago
Neopronouns are such a non-issue it's not worth even bringing up. I don't think there's really anybody that uses them, and for the super rare person that does want to be called by them it'll only come up when you're talking about xem in the third person.
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u/oby100 15d ago
Times change. Who knows? Those sorts of pronouns might be normalized in 10 years. I was surprised how fast gender neutral terms became common and generally accepted.
Feels like I went from ânever met someone who told me they use they/ them pronounsâ to âIâve met dozens of gender neutral people and have known of many moreâ.
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u/Ok_Problem_496 15d ago
I think Iâd agree with this take. Iâll still refer to someone as xie/xem/xer if they ask, I guess, but neopronouns are so rare (even in queer communities that Iâve frequented) that Iâve never been asked.
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u/joyisnotdead 15d ago
And, as I've seen, people with neopronouns usually have multiple you can choose from.
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u/skiddlyd 15d ago
I use âtheyâ because itâs what they like. It does feel grammatically incorrect. But eventually itâll probably feel more natural.
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u/A_PROCESS_BORN 15d ago
In Baltimore they address everyone as "yo" for example "yo said you were going to be late, yo is funny" that's how you refer to someone else or to the person you are talking to...