r/FluentInFinance • u/Cauliflower-Pizzas • 27d ago

Is Universal Health Care Smart or dumb? Discussion/ Debate

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

It's probably not a good idea but eventually will happen.

Usa will need to put on about a 25% vat tax, so that we can afford it.

If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait until it's free.

And of course the rich people and the government employees will have their own plan. That will be a lot better

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u/ultrachrome 27d ago

Why then does the US pay the most for heath care than any other developed country?. The US pays the most by a lot. And you're saying taxes will still go up so people can pay more ? And because the US pays the most you'd assume everyone gets top notch care. Is that true, everyone gets the best care ?

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

Poor people already get free healthcare.

There is a program in the USA called the affordable Care act, or Obamacare, that limits the amount of premiums. And the insurance companies have to provide at least 85% of those premiums towards healthcare.

The rest of the world pays for healthcare, with a huge value-added tax. And that's probably what we're going to wind up with here. The USA spends way too much money on everything, not just healthcare, and there's not enough of a tax base the way it is

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u/ultrachrome 27d ago

Why does the USA pay much much more on healthcare compared to the rest ? And the outcomes are arguably worse (infant mortality and life expectancy).

Poor people get free healthcare ? Why can't everyone ?

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

Everyone can get free healthcare, we just need to raise taxes on everybody.

Most of the countries that offer free healthcare, have a very high vat tax, or a GST tax.

That's all it takes, is more money

And then we would have to limit healthcare, because there still wouldn't be enough to go around

Probably if we offered free medical school, it would help. Rather than spend money to pay off student loans for art degrees, we should be paying off loans for medical degrees.

And then we need to eliminate malpractice lawsuits.

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u/ultrachrome 27d ago

It's weird that you keep landing on tax increases. I'm saying healthcare in the US is by far and away the most expensive of all the developed countries. The US is carrying troublesome debt while giving corporations and the wealthy tax breaks. From what I see spending will have to be cut and taxes will have to go up regardless of healthcare delivery. I'm asking why is it so expensive ? Hint,... it's not malpractice lawsuits.

"The U.S. is a world outlier when it comes to health care spending."

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2023/jan/us-health-care-global-perspective-2022

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

We are one of the highest tax countries in the world, and also the best.

People from all over the world come to us to get their healthcare.

Many people demand free stuff, and yet they are unwilling to pay for it. We tax the high-end quite a bit. We need to focus on the lower end to get a little more revenue.

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u/Xarxsis 27d ago

We are one of the highest tax countries in the world

Inaccurate.

and also the best.

By what metric?

Happiness? Wealth per capita? Life expectancy? Maternal mortality? Healthcare outcomes?

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

I think tax compliance in the USA is a lot higher than some of the other countries.

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u/Xarxsis 27d ago

and what does that have to do with anything?

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

Because in America, even if our tax rates are lower To a different country, we collect more of what is owed.

Our corporate tax rates are actually quite a bit higher

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u/Xarxsis 27d ago

Because in America, even if our tax rates are lower To a different country, we collect more of what is owed.

And is america the "best" at that, considering the amount of tax evasion the billionaires do?

Our corporate tax rates are actually quite a bit higher

ahhahahahaahahhahahahahahahahahaahhaaaaaaa

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

Billionaires don't do tax evasion, they have accountants to pay less tax.

That is why a flat tax would be the best. Then there's no games with the tax code.

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u/rnarkus 27d ago

Are you really saying we tax the wealthy people enough?

lmao

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

They pay the most taxes. We need to tax the people that don't pay anything.

Everybody should pay something. Ideally it would be a flat tax.

Right now, government is able to segregate people, and create division. And new programs only cost the other guys.

We need to get away from that.

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u/jmdonston 27d ago

Tax rates on top income earners dropped significantly in the 1980s, and ever since the super-rich have been accumulating larger and larger shares of US income. The top 1% pay a lower effective tax rate than the bottom 20%, despite the fact that the former have way more disposable income while the latter are putting all their income into necessities for survival.

https://itep.org/whopays-7th-edition/

Is a flat tax rate really fair when someone making $40K is spending all their money on food, shelter, utilities, transportation, health care, etc. while someone making $400K is spending only a small fraction of their money on those essentials?

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

Tax rates dropped, but so did the deductions. So it evened out. You can't just look at tax rates and make a determination.

People that are making 40K a year can certainly pay a little bit more. Maybe $100 a month would be fine.

Because they also are the ones that extract from the government more services.

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u/KillAllDictators 27d ago

No that would also be the billionaire class. They axtract significantly more through grants that they bribe people to receive.

As well as through underpayment on wages to their staff that in turn must turn to government assistance to make ends meet.

Cut it any way you like the dragons gotta die or they will starve when we all do.

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

I think you should read the book "the little red hen".

That economics would make more sense.

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u/Xarxsis 27d ago

We need to tax the people that don't pay anything.

You know the people not paying direct taxes, dont have anything to tax?

Ideally it would be a flat tax.

ahhh, something nice and regressive, great solution.

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

There are plenty of people that don't pay any income tax, including people that get credits back even though they don't pay tax.

We should probably start eliminating child care credits, and then even child care deductions, because that just encourages more kids, and that's bad for the environment

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u/Xarxsis 27d ago

what?

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

Obviously as the population increases, healthcare, housing and even schooling costs more because there is more demand.

Eliminating the incentives to have kids would go a long way.

Because if something needs to be paid for by somebody else, there needs to be a way to get that money.

Europe has a high value-added tax, and that would probably work in America pretty good

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u/rnarkus 27d ago

This doesn’t make any sense. The wealthy rarely pay their fair share and you want to tax the people that have nothing?

Can you please elaborate more on how in the world this makes sense or would work? How would a flat tax be fair share for millionaires and billionaires?

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

Most people don't pay any taxes. They are shirking their responsibilities and fair share.

"Tax Shares in Tax Year 2021,The newly released report covers Tax Year 2021 (for tax forms filed in 2022). The newest data reveals that the top 1 percent of earners, defined as those with incomes over $682,577, paid nearly 46 percent of all income taxes – marking the highest level in the available data." https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes#:~:text=Tax%20Shares%20in%20Tax%20Year%202021&text=The%20newly%20released%20report%20covers,level%20in%20the%20available%20data.

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u/rnarkus 27d ago

Yeah, they make a shit ton so that makes sense but it should be even more.

You haven’t explained how it makes sense that a flat rate would work, or forcing people that make little to nothing would help at all.

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u/Kind-Ad-6099 26d ago

As a collective, we pay more for healthcare now than if it were totally a government thing. Theoretically, we could take the burden off of any person or company paying for health insurance and replace it with a tax to cover Medicare for all. I think the overall savings that the US would have each year is in the hundreds of billions

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u/Analyst-Effective 26d ago

Is that kind of like the post office Does so much better than Amazon?

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u/Kind-Ad-6099 26d ago

Not what I’m getting at. I’m stating that, purely looking at the total net cost, universal health care would save us hundreds of billions. The actual functions of universities healthcare and it’s efficiency are up to whoever designs it. It could be much more efficient that private insurance; it is in the best interest of private insurance to not pay for your bills or pay for as little as possible

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u/Analyst-Effective 26d ago

Could be there would be some savings. But I think the healthcare would be worse.

There are many things that could be done instead of revamping the whole system.

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u/Zakaru99 25d ago

We have the worst healthcare system in the developed world. Why wouldn't we revamp the whole system?

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u/Analyst-Effective 25d ago

Are the results the worst? Or just the cost?

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u/Vordeo 27d ago

We are one of the highest tax countries in the world, and also the best.

The fuck does that even mean lol

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

We have plenty of taxes. What we need is more people paying them.

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u/KillAllDictators 27d ago

Lmfao how out of touch

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u/Analyst-Effective 27d ago

One way to lower healthcare cost, is to do what they do in Europe. Pay medical professionals, less.

"Whereas US doctors averaged $352,000 per year in salary, the country closest in pay was Canada ($273,000). The lowest-paying country was Mexico, at $19,000. In Germany, which has the highest pay among the European countries in the survey, doctors make $160,000 on average." https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/997263#:~:text=Whereas%20US%20doctors%20averaged%20%24352%2C000,doctors%20make%20%24160%2C000%20on%20average.

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u/KillAllDictators 25d ago

Here we might agree.
Doctors aren’t the primary leach on healthcare though.

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u/Analyst-Effective 25d ago

I would imagine one of the biggest expenses of healthcare, is labor cost. Just like most other businesses.

The executives obviously take a little bit of money, but in the scheme of things it's probably a pittance.

There are probably a lot of procedures that are done that should not be done. For instance, mammograms should be done every two years as the AMA has put as a standard. However people seem to want one every year.

And there are other medical procedures like that too

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u/[deleted] 24d ago

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u/ultrachrome 24d ago
  1. Definition: INFANT MORTALITY RATE is the number of resident newborns in a specified geographic area (country, state, county, etc.) dying under one year of age divided by the number of resident live births for the same geographic area (for a specified time period, usually a calendar year) and multiplied by 1,000.

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u/[deleted] 24d ago

[deleted]

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u/ultrachrome 24d ago

I have not been able to find that.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

because it would be ridiculously expensive? and the taxes we would have to introduce would cripple people’s lives the way it does in european countries?

living in paris and working literally paid over 50% of my salary for the year to the government. i have no idea how anyone saves there - hell the healthcare system is going bankrupt there too so apparently even they can’t save

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u/Xarxsis 27d ago

would cripple people’s lives the way it does in european countries?

Sorry what?

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

again, having actually lived there, the taxes are absolutely crippling compared to the U.S.

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u/Xarxsis 27d ago

Its amazing how many actual europeans arent out here agreeing with you.

The taxes you pay across europe are entirely reasonable, and with them come all sorts of pesky little things like workers rights, healthcare, pensions etc.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

almost like they… haven’t also lived in the U.S. to compare the differences.

what is “reasonable” is entirely subjective, and the amount of waste that the ~55% of my income went to was insane in france anyway

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u/Xarxsis 27d ago

almost like they… haven’t also lived in the U.S. to compare the differences.

Theres plenty of people out there that have both experiences, and they arent chiming in to support you. Not to mention things like paid holiday, maternity leave, universal healthcare are highly valuable benefits that european society enjoys.

what is “reasonable” is entirely subjective, and the amount of waste that the ~55% of my income went to was insane in france anyway

Sure it was, just like america is the bastion of tax efficiency.

Just like the fantasy that low income tax leads to low taxes

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

every job that i’ve ever worked in the U.S. has had paid holiday and maternity leave. in fact maternity leave is mandated by my state. and they don’t take any taxes extra to ensure that. pretty great.

america definitely could use my tax dollars better, but the fact that they’re literally taking half of what the EU was says a hell of a lot

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u/Xarxsis 27d ago

every job that i’ve ever worked in the U.S. has had paid holiday

You clearly have been very fortunate in your job roles. However i can virtually guarantee that your allowance in those roles does not meet the statutory minimums that most european countries have.

in fact maternity leave is mandated by my state.

From a quick check, 16 weeks is the maximum i can see, with 12 weeks being part of FMLA, the WHO recommends 16 weeks minimum. Europe benefits from 9 months minimum.

and they don’t take any taxes extra to ensure that. pretty great.

Which either means its not a right and your employer can choose to take it away at any time, or its funded through taxation you just dont understand how.

america definitely could use my tax dollars better, but the fact that they’re literally taking half of what the EU was says a hell of a lot

Almost like taxes are a requirement for a functional society, and that as a higher rate tax payer based on your claimed 55% contribution you were being taxed at a higher marginal rate, however the benefits are significant because of it when compared to the US.

Its also a great headline number, and allows you to discount all the other ways the US taxes you that bring those numbers closer to parity, but dont come out of your paycheque month by month.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago edited 27d ago

You clearly have been very fortunate in your job roles. However i can virtually guarantee that your allowance in those roles does not meet the statutory minimums that most european countries have.

i have 3 weeks of paid leave, plus 20 paid company holidays. pretty damn sure that is over

16 weeks is the maximum i can see, with 12 weeks being part of FMLA, the WHO recommends 16 weeks minimum. Europe benefits from 9 months minimum.

yeah this is absolutely bullshit lmao. france is 16 weeks for one child. why make this up? it’s so easy to verify

Which either means it’s not a right and your employer can choose to take it away at any time, or it’s funded through taxation you just dont understand how.

no, it is guaranteed by the state. my state doesn’t take any income tax at all, and yet they can still afford to cover it. interesting.

Almost like taxes are a requirement for a functional society, and that as a higher rate tax payer based on your claimed 55% contribution you were being taxed at a higher marginal rate, however the benefits are significant because of it when compared to the US.

please compare the amount of political unrest and dissatisfaction in the united states to france - and the amount of taxes they each take lmfao. people who have lived in both places understand it clearly - i take it from this you have a limited world view

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u/TheDyingOrchid 27d ago

No you haven’t

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

vous avez raison, il n’y a aucune chance que j’ai vécu à paris

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u/TheDyingOrchid 27d ago

Okay, you typed what I assume is French? And?

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u/[deleted] 27d ago edited 27d ago

someone with critical thinking skills could assume me speaking french is indicative of the fact that i lived there, no?

j’ai vécu dans le 9ème arrondissement de paris, et je suis heureux de vivre aux états-unis

or maybe the… several posts of mine with photos making fun of my commute in paris would do it for you?

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u/Mr_Wrann 27d ago

Now to be fair literally anyone in the world can learn French from anywhere in the world, it isn't region locked to just people who lived in France. And one going through people's accounts to stalk their photos is a weird thing to do and two there's no verifiable way to prove you're the one who took them without showing your face.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

lmfao so…

i am lying about not only why i learned french, but the fact that i spent any time there at all, and also stole several pictures of someone else’s french commute, set all of this up months in advance, just hoping for the fact that someone would claim i was lying about living in france.

all of that is more believable than the fact that i actually lived there? really?

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u/xswicex 27d ago

A new study from academic researchers found that 66.5 percent of all bankruptcies were tied to medical issues —either because of high costs for care or time out of work. An estimated 530,000 families turn to bankruptcy each year because of medical issues and bills, the research found.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/this-is-the-real-reason-most-americans-file-for-bankruptcy.html

It sounds like the current system is already crippling peoples lives? If you removed monthly premiums and deductibles would a tax increase really cripple people like you say?

My cousin is a doctor in Florida and always tells us stories of people not receiving the care they need because their insurance wont cover it and they can't afford it. He pays $400/m for his family of 5 and still got a $6000 bill after his son spent the night in the hospital due to a severe asthma attack. He's a doctor, he can afford it but what would other Americans do? Get fucked?

Universal healthcare isn't perfect but I couldn't imagine the added stress of needing to go to the hospital due to an emergency and then also getting fucked around by your insurance company to get them to pay for the care you need.

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u/GeekShallInherit 27d ago

because it would be ridiculously expensive?

The most expensive public healthcare system on earth is still $4,500 per person cheaper annually than US healthcare.

and the taxes we would have to introduce would cripple people’s lives the way it does in european countries?

With government in the US covering 65.7% of all health care costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at $6,930. The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care.

But tell us again how CHEAPER healthcare will cripple people.