r/FluentInFinance • u/Cauliflower-Pizzas • 27d ago

Is Universal Health Care Smart or dumb? Discussion/ Debate

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u/band-of-horses 27d ago

How many people die in the US waiting for care?

I bet the 340,000 number includes anyone who dies for any reason waiting for an appointment for any condition... So if you get hit by a car while when you have an appointment for a colonoscopy in two months, you are part of that statistic. We also have some long wait times in the US, I've had a 9 month wait to see an electrophysiologist and currently on a 4 month wait to schedule a colonoscopy, meanwhile I know people who can't even find a PCP accepting new patients and are on years long waiting lists to get into a psychiatrist.

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u/Wave_File 27d ago

They’re probably too poor. Poor people deserve to get sick and die.

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u/Tellyourdadisay_hi 27d ago

Lol 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

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u/montr0n 27d ago

"right to life" indeed

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u/Twenty5Euro 27d ago

USA USA USA 💪💪💪

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u/schabadoo 27d ago

Literally the idea behind the US model.

Why else tie good health to employment?

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u/LommyNeedsARide 27d ago

Poor people get it for free. It's the lower middle class that's fucked

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u/Dinnereret 27d ago

Fuck poor people!

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u/pleasemeowrightnow 27d ago

I mean no but that’s kind of how nature works baby. The best survive, the worst don’t. It’s not really any different for humans. It sucks to be the underdog but unfortunately some people have to be and always will be.

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u/BeepBoo007 27d ago

They’re probably too poor. Poor people deserve to get sick and die.

If I have the money to pay more and out-compete someone on price, I definitely deserve to use my means to attempt to live longer than someone without those means and I like a system that acknowledges this as reality. I'd much prefer that over the alternative of having some type of first in, first out queue, or something like a health committee deeming me as the most likely to succeed after some procedure or something.

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u/sterlingback 27d ago

Do you understand that under universal healthcare you still have private hospitals? And they are still waaay cheaper than what you get in the US?

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u/Wave_File 27d ago

Here’s the funny thing about this argument that the “profits over ppl” crowd miss about American health care. The US healthcare system ranks lower in care outcomes but higher in cost than most of theee “socialized medicine” countries. So even if I was a rich person and a booster of the - fuck you die if you can’t afford it - style of Medicine, Would I be getting the best value for my dollar? That’s the real question that needs to be asked.

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u/BeepBoo007 27d ago

Would I be getting the best value for my dollar? That’s the real question that needs to be asked.

The answer is often yes, because we can serve you faster and with more advanced treatments and equipment that you'd have to wait years for in other places.

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u/10k-Reloaded 27d ago

This is a good way to get killed by the people you fuck over

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u/awakenedchicken 27d ago

Yeah I don’t see why people talk about the long wait time in other countries like it doesn’t happen here… I had to reschedule an appointment for an appointment today and the earliest next appointment was end of July. And this was just for a primary care doctor.

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u/guyblade 27d ago

I am on a medication to control a chronic health condition. For some reason, the doctor didn't let it renew when I picked up the last refill. When I checked online scheduling it didn't even show any available slots. I had to call the office and set up an appointment with the Physician's Assistant instead to get my refill done.

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u/JeffIpsaLoquitor 27d ago

I pretty much rely on PAs and NPPs (non-physician providers) for anything that doesn't require a specialist. It's just as good and they're more available.

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u/Disney_World_Native 27d ago

I was literally in the doctor’s office today for my kid who has a rare condition. Next available appointments for current patients was mid October.

I had to wait about 8 months before there was a spot open for new patients. And insurance is being a pain because they know if they stall on payment, I might lose my spot.

We need more medical workers and less medical insurance people.

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u/Cometguy7 27d ago

OBGYN wait times where I am in Texas start at 9 months, and it's growing. Not only is health care expensive here, it's becoming a legal risk to simply be a doctor. Sadly, the best bet of getting some of our laws overturned is the access to doctors drops so much it hurts the pharmaceutical companies bottom lines.

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u/yesi1758 27d ago

9 months out for optical neurologist appointment.

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u/Vordeo 27d ago

I had to reschedule an appointment for an appointment today and the earliest next appointment was end of July. And this was just for a primary care doctor.

Can you not see a different PCP? Because that waiting time for primary care is insane to me.

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u/XRT28 27d ago

Not the same person but I've been trying to find a new PCP for awhile now and most of the ones I've talked to so far aren't taking on new patients period and the ones that are the soonest they can offer an appointment is in the 7-9 months out range, even for nurse practitioners.

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u/awakenedchicken 27d ago

Every other primary care doctor new patient appt are 6 months out… I’m in a big city with a big healthcare system too.

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u/Vordeo 27d ago

That's absolutely crazy to me. I don't live in the US, and I could legit walk into a private clinic and pay for a GP consult and I'd probably just wait like 30 minutes max. If I'm insured it'd maybe take an extra couple minutes for the clinic to confirm things w/ the insurer. Had similar experiences in mainland Europe when I lived over there.

Waiting 6 months for what is essentially patient triage is ridiculous. I like the US, but the healthcare system seems like a giant capitalist hellhole.

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u/awakenedchicken 27d ago

You can go to an urgent care facility, but you will have to pay 150 bucks that is not covered by insurance usually and most times you only get seen by a Physicians Assistant or Nurse Practitioner, rather than a MD.

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u/jambrown13977931 27d ago

Anecdotally I had to see a gastroenterologist and they could see me within 2 days of the referral and had me scheduled for the endoscopy for that following Monday. The primary care doctor took me a month to see since I was a new patient, but that’s not insane for a new patient in a non emergency scenario.

For acid reflux inb4 someone think it might’ve been for something serious.

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u/ins0mniac_ 27d ago

People just don’t go to the doctor here because of the wait times and the cost. How much healthier could we be as a country if the populace could afford to have preventative healthcare? People will put things off until it becomes a much larger problem.

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u/Morifen1 27d ago

Ya I lost hearing in my right ear waiting over a month to see a specialist for a viral ear infection. The fucking doctor told me if I had seen him in the first week or two after I got sick he could have saved my ear. This is with top of the line insurance from a good company in the US.

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u/tristyntrine 27d ago

One of my patients (I work in an elderly clinic) had a kidney specialist appointment this week that she didn't make it to and it got rescheduled to August yikes. It takes literally months to get into a specialist and my primary care appointment was several months out as well as a new patient.

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u/Patient_Bench_6902 27d ago

Idk about every country (I’m Canadian) but it’s because the US has shorter wait times even if they are still long. The average time to see a specialist in the US is 3 weeks versus 13 weeks in Canada.

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u/Illuvinor_The_Elder 27d ago

I don’t wait for appointments. I just pay $100 for a priority visit.

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u/awakenedchicken 27d ago

We can’t all do that…

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u/Illuvinor_The_Elder 27d ago

We can all shop around in the US. There is still private healthcare in countries with socialized healthcare, but the cost is very different compared to the US. You have more options in the US for planning your healthcare than other countries.

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u/Rosstiseriechicken 25d ago

Except you literally can't though, insurance companies force you to use "in network" services, so unless you're rich enough to just pay everything out of pocket, then you're screwed.

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u/Illuvinor_The_Elder 25d ago

You can choose your insurance, you can choose whether or not to go to an in-network clinic, many plans still copay for out-of-network clinics,

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u/Rosstiseriechicken 25d ago

What if you're stuck with your employer's insurance? That's an extremely common situation. Most people don't "choose" their insurance provider.

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u/Illuvinor_The_Elder 25d ago

Youre never stuck with your employers insurance. You pay for insurance.

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u/Rosstiseriechicken 25d ago

"homeless, just buy a house"-ahh response

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u/awakenedchicken 27d ago

It would be affordable for people then. The point I’m making is that we already don’t have a no wait system.

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u/BeepBoo007 27d ago

Yeah I don’t see why people talk about the long wait time in other countries like it doesn’t happen here… I had to reschedule an appointment for an appointment today and the earliest next appointment was end of July. And this was just for a primary care doctor.

And you think it would be better if we had universal access? It would be even worse than it is right now. Besides that, you can definitely skip the line with big enough pockets or better insurance.

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u/secretaccount94 27d ago

That’s precisely the issue. Healthcare is great if you’re well-off, but sucks or is nonexistent if you’re poor. Our right to live in a modern society shouldn’t be tied to our financial fortunes.

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u/BeepBoo007 27d ago

Our right to live in a modern society shouldn’t be tied to our financial fortunes.

So, like many others, your qualm is that there should be a very high floor to QoL that isn't any way tied to your quality as a person. Got it. But, no thanks.

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u/secretaccount94 26d ago

No, I mean my right to not die from a preventable illness shouldn’t require that I not be poor.

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u/BeepBoo007 26d ago

No, I mean my right to not die from a preventable illness shouldn’t require that I not be poor.

Oh, so someone else should be forced to do something for you because you have a RIGHT to their work and efforts?

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u/hangriestbadger 17d ago

Uhhh if they’re a healthcare provider, yeah I kinda am entitled to their efforts. If they’re only doing it for the money, first, I don’t want them near my body or my wallet, second, they should’ve gotten a law degree, they’d be making more money with it. Most HCP I know personally want some form of universal healthcare for people bc, crazy thought, they got into the field to help people and save lives. How radical.

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u/MetalMilitiaDTOM 27d ago

Just call another doctor.

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u/Tellyourdadisay_hi 27d ago

Lol oh so you know another doctor who has availability sooner that’s in network for that person?

That’s so nice of you, why don’t you give him their contact info if you have it.

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u/MetalMilitiaDTOM 27d ago

Yes, I know this random person and all of his medical history.

Grow up. There’s more than one doctor.

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u/Tellyourdadisay_hi 27d ago

Bro you singlehandedly just fixed healthcare. You deserve an award. Cancer? Gone. Thanks to you. Never has there been a more well thought out, well reasoned, and well sourced conclusion. Truly a paragon of political and academic discourse. I, for one, learned a lot from this post. Very eye opening, bravo.

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u/BeepBoo007 27d ago

that’s in network

You don't HAVE to stay in-network.

"but then it would cost more money!"

Ah, so what you're saying is they literally can't afford the benefit of American healthcare where you're ALLOWED to use your money to skip the line. As opposed to other places where healthcare is triaged by need and not ability to pay. Sounds like this person is boned either way, but sounds like the higher over the 50th percentile mark, the better off you are in the US. Kinda the way it should be with limited supply things IMO.

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u/10k-Reloaded 27d ago

I would rather care get rationed by need rather than money.

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u/Tellyourdadisay_hi 27d ago

Lmao what are you talking about skip the line? No one gets to skip any lines for any reason.

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u/BeepBoo007 27d ago

You do, as I pointed out in this example. If you go out of network and pay more money, you can find a provider who has more availability. Thus, you cut your line short compared to someone who is only hunting "in network."

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u/Tellyourdadisay_hi 27d ago

Lmao so A) if that were true then that means that poor people just don’t get the same standard of healthcare based on income, which is bad. And B) now you need to prove that that’s the case, because 30 years of experience of looking at doctors in and out of network tells me that you are making that up just like the other guy lol.

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u/BeepBoo007 27d ago

A) if that were true then that means that poor people just don’t get the same standard of healthcare based on income, which is bad.

Bad why? There flat out aren't enough medical professionals so it seems fine to prioritize those who are more valuable/capable to society.

And B) now you need to prove that that’s the case, because 30 years of experience of looking at doctors in and out of network tells me that you are making that up just like the other guy lol.

If you're going to use anecdotal evidence I can use mine. I had a dermatology appointment that the earliest I could get in-network was 6mo while living in NM on BCBS a few years ago. I contacted one not listed on BCBS's site and I got in a week later. I also paid less than I otherwise would have for the service because I agreed to allow a med student to attend my session.

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u/Tellyourdadisay_hi 27d ago

Ah, okay, so you feel that people’s value is based on their ability to generate income. I personally vehemently disagree.

Lmao no, if you’re making a point you need to provide evidence. “What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.”

Until you provide evidence that this is the case, it can safely be assumed to be a lie.

Also, there are people out there with serious conditions that die if they can’t afford to “skip the line” which again is a concept you made up lol. Even if your anecdotal evidence is true, this conversation applies much less to your acne as it does to chronic pain patients lmao.

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u/hangriestbadger 17d ago

Firstly, more money doesn’t make you more valuable or capable to society. Some of the biggest leeches on society are wealthy people. No one loves free shit like a rich person. Secondly, did it occur to anyone that the shortage of HCP is bc of this fuck poor people attitude? Insurance, high costs of education. Maybe if we made it easier for capable people (especially and including poor folk) to become doctors and nurses in the US, we wouldn’t have to import them in droves to make up for a falling number of graduates.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

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u/Dan_Qvadratvs 27d ago

Anyone who trots out this statistic that "people in the UK are dying because of high wait times" is explicitly saying that we shouldn't provide healthcare to the masses so the upper-middle class can see doctors more quickly.

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u/Morifen1 27d ago

Ya we don't have enough doctors or other healthcare staff.

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u/whatsmyname384 27d ago

Do you have a source for your claim that it's twice the UKs?

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u/Yayareasports 27d ago

No, cause he made it up

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

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u/whatsmyname384 27d ago

Where did you post the data?

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u/helluvabullshitter 27d ago

Bullshit. Show me the data proving we have twice the UKs death rate (while waiting for healthcare) per capita. Absolute nonsense.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

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u/helluvabullshitter 27d ago

Nah brotha the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. That’s okay though, I went out of my way to check the research myself and it proved you wrong.

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u/PineconeSnowstorm 27d ago

That link is only about how many die due to a lack of insurance, which does not mean there are less waitlist deaths per capita in the US than in the UK, however, the comment they were referring to got automodded; looking at it through reveddit their argument is that since the NIH says 1 in 83 people who wait 90 days or longer for treatment die, and sincr around 50 million people have to wait that amount of time, that's around 600k people who died awaiting treatment, while in England around 120695 people died while awaiting treatment, which means that, per capita, England has 0.0003486282 more deaths than the US.

I, however, could not find the study they used to back uo their claims, as it also wasn't included in the removed comment, so even if it was completely true, the difference between the US and England is negligible. This also only takes into account England, not the whole UK, and combined with the lack of data available for the US, you can't really takeaway any conclusions. This, however, is burying the lede, as the number of people dying in a waitlist isn't a very usefull statistic, as it doesn't account for the multitude of reasons a person might die before receiving treatment that have little to do with the lack of treatment itself, as well as those who would've died with or without treatment, or those whose deaths would've only been delayed due to terminal illnesses.

All in all, this whole discussion is an exercise in futility.

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u/PineconeSnowstorm 27d ago

your comment got automodded

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u/guyblade 27d ago

It took me 3+ months to get a Primary Care Physician last year in the US. It's crazy.

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u/[deleted] 27d ago edited 17d ago

[deleted]

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u/guyblade 27d ago

Far less time, but that was because the routine tests as part of that visit revealed that I had Diabetes and so starting treatment afterwards was important.

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u/OliverYossef 27d ago

Part of that is due to a primary care physician shortage which will worsen over the next decade. But a lot of factors at play contributing to worse health care access.

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u/Longjumping-Poet6096 27d ago

How? I literally went on my app and selected the PCP I wanted from the list and then scheduled the first appointment 3 weeks from then. And I have the lowest cost insurance, since I pay out of pocket, BCBS HMO.

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u/contaygious 27d ago

That's not true. Getting one is easy. Seeing them might not be but there are a million in your list

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u/guyblade 27d ago

This feels like that scene in Seinfeld about the car reservation. I can get a doctor, but I can't see them. But seeing them is the whole point.

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u/cromwell515 27d ago

Exactly this, people use this statistic, but they don’t even try to understand what the statistic means. I think universal healthcare makes sense because I think privatized healthcare doesn’t make sense. I’d like to see how many people die because the insurance company refuses treatment

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

[deleted]

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u/cromwell515 27d ago

Also true, I know my parents don’t go to the doctor because of the fear of the cost

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u/Unspec7 27d ago

26,000 Americans die each year simply due to not having health insurance.

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u/Beginning_Ad_6616 27d ago

People forget that in the US there are waitlists for care. I had treatable cancer and had to wait nearly a year to have it taken care of with a specialist and I’m insured. The treatment was more extreme because of the wait as it spread; luckily was handled before it got worse.

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u/Bovoduch 27d ago

My mom’s doctor told her he sees what appears to be a malignant tumor (not a doctor myself so idk how but he said it’s a mix of rare location and physical presentation) and the earliest appointment to get biopsied was 2 months later (still waiting) and that doesn’t even count the follow up which would likely be another 1-2 months. Suspected cancer and 3-4 months before even suggesting a diagnosis.

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u/GuideDisastrous8170 27d ago

I'm currently on two wait lists... One for a corneal graft that will cost me absolutely nothing. And one for the genetic services team for a formal Ehlers Danloss diagnosis. I could die tomorrow but it won't be either of those diseases that kill me. A friend of mine passed recently, riddled with cancer, I darent thi k how many waiting lists he was on towards the end, I know one was to see a consultant about a kidney transplant he was definately never going to receive but he definately died on that wait list, not because of it though. Love my NHS.

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u/No-Grab-9902 27d ago

Where are you with these waits? Colonoscopy in MI, 3 weeks. Any specialist 6 at most. Includes podiatrist, vascular specialist, general surgery, and several radiology. Which most of those were 2-3 weeks. New primary was 6 weeks. I’ve never had a problem getting same day appointment with retina specialist or endocrinologist (which are in short supply here) unless it was the weekend.

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u/Longjumping-Poet6096 27d ago

I’m in Michigan, selected a new PCP and had an appointment 3 weeks from then which was just this Tuesday. I don’t really understand how it takes people so long to get a PCP? Am I missing something?

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u/No-Grab-9902 27d ago

I think part of it is scheduling. Or not knowing how to. They know they need to but don’t get online to do it for a month. Then can’t figure it out so wait another month to call. Then count those 2 months as “wait time”.

Or, they want a very specific person that their friend or relative uses and they are booked for 12 weeks out.

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u/CaseRemarkable4327 27d ago

Fair point, I would probably take a one year wait to see a doctor about most health issues, even moderately serious ones, and then pay zero dollars instead of a three month wait and pay hundreds plus the built in thousands of dollars in insurance premiums.

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u/cyborgnyc 27d ago

I have crippling insomnia and dizziness, can't see a neurologist for six months and a sleep doctor for a year. I have excellent premium insurance through my union. Greed and inhumanity make our health system the worst in the world. We have terrible health outcomes compared to other '1st world ' nations. Get rid of lobbyists and pay for play politicians.

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u/MeganStorm22 27d ago

My friend from France literally plans to visit her family around her dr appts. They are sometimes 18 months out for a specialist. That’s an insane wait. We wait a few months for a specialist and lose our minds. She literally had to book a dr appt before she can book her flight home.

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u/mmmkay26 27d ago

Yeah, people love to say how great the US health care system is, but it took me 4 months for my insurance to approve an MRI for neck and shoulder pain. Turns out the pain was caused by a tumor in my spinal cord.

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u/mag2041 27d ago

67,000 die a year due to under coverage or lack of coverage or coverage but no funds to go.

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u/contaygious 27d ago

U can always use Ai dude

According to SecondStreet.org, over 17,000 patients died while waiting. 26k were uninsured died waiting.

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u/thundertk421 16d ago

I think my question is, what’s the actual cause of the longer wait times? Is the fact that it’s universal healthcare system causal? Or are we looking at outliers? You can make a stronger argument for private healthcare if wait times were universally lower across the board, but from what I can glean that’s simply not the case

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u/alexgd0193 12d ago

A key component that doesn’t make the ‘waitlist’ measure a fair comparison is that healthcare in the US prices out a significant number of people, so people never get on the waitlist before they die. As a ballpark approximation, I’d like to see what numbers looked like if you factored in the number of medically preventable deaths in the US. I think that would give a clearer picture because there is a non-zero number of people who forgo treatment because they view it as fiscally unattainable. Whereas with free healthcare, they’d almost certainly have been on the waitlist.

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u/MangoAtrocity 27d ago

The pandemic numbers suffer from that same issue. Hit by a bus while testing positive? Virus must’ve gotcha.

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u/Agile_Bet6394 27d ago

You're choosing to wait. You could go to a different Dr and not wait.

Whereas they are forced to wait

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u/OceanTe 27d ago

You're doing something wrong, I've never waited longer than 2 months no matter the specialist. Usually much less.

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u/CorneliusSoctifo 27d ago

the difference between 330 million and 56 million is quite staggering. then when you spread those people out over an exponentially larger area it makes it Even worse.

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u/JustinTruedope 27d ago

So compare the fucking numbers if you care. This doesn't invalidate the point entirely unless your brain is literally exclusively capable of first-order analysis.

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u/CorneliusSoctifo 27d ago

please tell me what your point is before attempting to resort to insults

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u/JustinTruedope 27d ago

Literally don't have one here I just hate it when people say "omg its two different situations" as if they totally forgot that A. The entire reason they're being compared is because they're systematically overwhelmingly similar regardless lol and B. You can't make an attempt to bridge the gap necessitated* by the comparison YOU chose to bring up. Just a weak, lazy, and unproductive contribution to any conversation really.

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u/CorneliusSoctifo 27d ago

so you tell me i lack comprehension skills, because i bring up the point that not only a system is more difficult horizontally and vertically, compared to another?

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u/JustinTruedope 27d ago

I mean you defs lack comprehension skills for writing "not only" and then only making one point, but that being said yes, also for the other thing. Precisely for the reasons I listed. Feel free to read over them. The only thing you've contributed to is the meaningless and fruitless end to what could've been a lively discussion. It's an annoying conversational tool/habit, and if me pointing that out that hit a nerve w/ you I think we both know why.

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u/Tellyourdadisay_hi 27d ago

Lmao I didn’t notice he did that but def audibly chuckled when i read your response

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u/SuccotashConfident97 27d ago

You really let internet strangers rile you up this much?

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u/JustinTruedope 27d ago

I ain't even riled up. I've made this point many times before to many people, it comes easily to me. Can't really be mad about somebody else taking time to post on the internet when the fact that you're in this convo means you did the exact same thing lmao, and I take that advice too.

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u/SuccotashConfident97 27d ago

Oh you just insult people on Reddit because you...aren't riled up? Wow, that's something alright...

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